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hopsalot

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  • in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160184
    hopsalot
    Participant

    @ Andraxxus,
    With only variable turning radar on or off,
    1- If F-35 radiates, Rafale/Grippen/Typhoon will be aware of its presence, but without any means of attacking back, they withdraw or die.

    Or, the Rafale/Gripen/Typhoon now knowing the approximate location it will use others sensors (IRST or AESA) to identify the target and then engage with IR MICA or other AAM. RWR has huge “search volume” with poor tracking while focused AESA use and IRST has the opposite properties.

    Knowing where to look would help, but it doesn’t remove the advantages the stealthy aircraft would enjoy. Besides, assuming the F-35s were using their stealthy datalinks the 4th generation fighter couldn’t even be confident it knew where to look. It might have some idea where one F-35 is, but what about the others?

    Face it, the advantages conveyed by stealth and stealthy datalinks are huge.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160187
    hopsalot
    Participant

    Anti-Radiation? Such thing doesn’t exist for A-A missiles, and won’t due to space constraints and the need of specialized equipment for this task.

    This actually isn’t true.

    Google the R-27EP… it doesn’t appear to have ever been put into wide service but an air to air anti-radiation missile was once in production. (probably intended for use against SARH shooters)

    There was also work ongoing at one time to develop an anti-radiation seeker for the AMRAAM.

    The US Air Force is developing a secondary passive anti-radiation seeker for the Raytheon AIM-120 Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile (AMRAAM).

    The Passive Adjunct Seeker Antenna project is led by the USAF’s Wright Laboratories Armament Directorate. A demonstration of the passive seeker antenna has already been carried out, says the USAF research organisation.

    A passive adjunct seeker would provide the AMRAAM with a dual-mode capability. At present, the AIM-120 relies on its active radar seeker for final target acquisition and terminal guidance.

    A secondary seeker would allow for the passively guided launch of an AIM-120 against a target aircraft when the latter’s air-intercept radar is emitting. Such an engagement would not require the launch aircraft to use its own radar, with the AMRAAM’s passive seeker homing on the radio frequency energy from the target radar. Were the target aircraft’s radar to be turned off, then the AMRAAM could revert to the active seeker to relocate it.

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/us-air-force-works-on-passive-amraam-34141/

    That doesn’t mean non-stealthy aircraft are completely defensless againist F-35, but its not simple as that. For example flying very low and fast non-VLO aircraft can mitigate stealth advantage to a degree because;
    1- Even the most modern radar will operate reduced effectiveness againist ground clutter, and in theory low power modes will be affected more. However slight the difference maybe, it will delay detection/tracking range and make tracking unreliable when aircraft moves in and out of radar shadows of ground objects. It will also put F-35, in unobstructed view againist clear sky, and provide slightly higher FOV to increase detection range.

    This would be suicide, it is true that flying low would likely reduce the range at which the older fighter would be detected, but the F-35 would retain a huge detection range advantage. Meanwhile, such low flight would wreck the fighter’s range, endurance, and ensure that any shot it did take would be both up hill and flying through the thickest part of the atmosphere.

    2- When BVR missiles are fired to very low flying objects, they have very short range, even if they are fired from higher altitude; ~20 km head on range for AIM-120B, againist non-maneuvering target for example. This will force stealth aircraft into IRST range, and missiles like MICA-IR and R-27TE can be used quite effectively.

    See above.

    3-Low flying aircraft can turn very well due to increased lift, and turbofan engines are at their peak power to regain energy after hard turns. As missiles are too fast, they are already G limited to benefit from increased lift, and increased drag at low altitude will heavily degrade their terminal Pk. So evasion of missiles (by maneuvering) at low altitude is easier than that of high altitude.

    Flying low would ensure that the aircraft was going at most slightly above M1, and while it could sustain high-G maneuvers better, it wouldn’t be able to open up distance effectively.

    There are a whole list of reasons fighters want to stay high if they anticipate going into an air to air engagement. Intentionally going into such a fight at low altitude would be a very very poor decision.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160417
    hopsalot
    Participant

    What were these F-15s doing? Radiating with their APG-63 in fruitless effort to locate the F-22 with radar.. Idiot’s tactics because they have nothing else to rely upon.. Don’t expect fighters equipped with IRST and passive detection and tracking systems to do the same mistake..

    Sure, they will all just turn off their radars because only an “idiot” would try to use their radar. Then presumably they will turn off their non-stealthy datalinks and rely 100% on their IRST.

    Of course having given up on their radar and networking they still aren’t stealthy and any F-35 or F-22 could locate and track them at will using its own radar, information it would of course be sharing with other F-22 or F-35s.

    So what are we left with? A flight of 4th generation fighters flying around hoping their IRST detects something before a missile hits them, being continuously tracked by 5th generation fighters. Who wants to guess how this scenario ends?

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2160740
    hopsalot
    Participant

    True of many fighters in that regime, it is not something unique to the F-35. Here is a flight report on the F-15 read the critical parts to understand what flight testing is about:
    http://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/pdf/87906main_H-1073.pdf
    Notice how the report talks about the buffeting and nonresponsive controls in high AoA. That is flight test not ” wow loved that aircraft everything is daisy’s and unicorns!”, critical analysis.

    Don’t usually link to F-16.net but this deserves a link, F-16/ F-35 WVR survivability vis a vis
    modern aam:

    https://i.imgur.com/qRto6cG.png

    https://i.imgur.com/qRto6cG.png

    This is worth highlighting further as it gets to the points some here have been trying to make for years. Close combat capability is dominated by HOBS missiles and helmet mounted sights. Extreme turn performance doesn’t convey the advantage that it once did, and no aircraft is going to out-turn modern missiles.

    Note the three bars on the right of the chart represent three different hypothetical JSF designs with different levels of maneuverability. The leftmost is A-7 like, the middle bar is F-16 like, and the third bar is F-22 like.

    (explained in the full report: http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2007/MR719.pdf )

    Bottom line, not a huge difference in real-world performance.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2162205
    hopsalot
    Participant

    Well, that is exactly what the F-22s seemed to be doing, according to the story.. No wonder they have prevailed.. The question stands why would Rafales want to use their radars? That is pretty much the last thing one would do when facing a stealthy fighter equipped with AN/ALR-94, unless the ROE dictate it…

    Because they don’t have much choice?

    The Rafale’s primary air to air sensor is its radar and its datalink isn’t stealthy. So what do you do? Fly around with no radar and no datalink looking out the window? Hope the IR sensor in one of the missiles on your wings somehow detects the F-22 before it has killed you 4 times?

    The F-22 meanwhile has both an LPI radar (which may or may not be detectable by the Rafale) but it doesn’t really matter because it also has stealth and stealthy datalinks allowing it to fully exploit the potential capabilities offered by cooperative tactics.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2162207
    hopsalot
    Participant

    There was no BVR fight with Rafale AFAIK

    Probably as far as the Rafale pilots remember as well…

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2162655
    hopsalot
    Participant

    I am at a loss to understand why the US just doesn’t design a light fighter from the parts of the various programs it has. An upgraded F-16 with the XL / M-2000-like wings and thrust vectoring, perhaps one of the new high TWR engines, and parts from the JSF program would be a world beater. An AESA radar and IRST. A supercruising fighter that costs reasonable money and operates at reasonable costs. Doesn’t seem like an impossibility. Even if the US doesn’t need it, surely other allies would. Something like a modern day F-5 for those that have submitted to the Empire.

    You realize such an aircraft would be anything but cheap, right?

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163174
    hopsalot
    Participant

    Only one that is f-35 proper is the stealth and on a certain extent sensors: networking, data fusion, all are software things that can also be implementer in others design…if some other would have been carried on instead of putting all western world eggs in one basket…and in case of USAF for the second time in a row.

    Hypothetically many of the F-35s features could be retrofitted to older airframes, but that isn’t cost effective and it still wouldn’t produce an aircraft on par with the F-35 itself.

    As for the Western world putting all its eggs in one basket, Europe could develop a 5th generation fighter if they put their minds to it, but it would cost money…

    That is at the heart of a lot of the criticism of the F-35. Lots of European aviation enthusiasts that don’t like the fact that Europe is essentially exiting the tactical fighter market and seek to blame the F-35 instead of their own politicians and voters.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163178
    hopsalot
    Participant

    And, I assume, with an accompanying compromise of the intended stealth tactical fighter capability that the F-35 is supposed to share with the F-22?

    The F-22 is a pure air to air fighter. It is faster, higher flying, and more maneuverable than an F-35. It also carries more air to air missiles.

    The F-35 is a multi-role fighter. It can fly farther, carrying larger internal weapons, and has a built in targeting pod. It can also carry weapons externally, which the F-22 is theoretically capable of doing but which aren’t actually integrated. According to some well-informed sources the F-35 is also stealthier than the F-22.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163181
    hopsalot
    Participant

    i’m thinking the Thach Weave maneuver will be standard for F-35 pilots

    Sure, that would be a really handy skill just in case an F-35 finds itself in a gun fight with some Mitsubishi Zeros…

    :stupid:

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163272
    hopsalot
    Participant

    I understand that one reason the F-35 was chosen was its “commonality” with the F-22. First, is this even true? Second, assuming that it is, is it really such a big factor? Third, seems to me that the money that will ultimately be wasted on the program will far outweigh whatever “cost savings” that “commonality” may realize.

    The F-35 was designed to compliment the F-22, and there has been some technological cross pollination between the two but they are completely different aircraft.

    The commonality you heard about was almost certainly commonality between the three F-35 variants.

    Edit to reflect your edit:

    See the following from http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com:

    “The F-35 family was designed to be much more affordable than the F-22, but a number of factors are narrowing that gap. One is… loss of parts commonality between the 3 models, which the GAO has cited as falling below the level required to produce significant savings. In March 2013, the JSF PEO placed the figure at just 25-30%.”

    That is talking about commonality between the three F-35 variants. The airframes of the three variants are more “similar” than truly common. Some parts are directly interchangeable but most structural elements are not. The avionics and software for the three are almost completely common which will allow significant savings.

    The F-35A (the most common variant) is already far cheaper than the F-22.

    If you look at this study that was done as the F-22 line was preparing to shut down examining the costs of continuing production for an additional 75 airframes they concluded it would cost approximately $140 million per aircraft in 2008 dollars.
    http://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monographs/2010/RAND_MG797.pdf

    The F-35A today is roughly $100million per airframe (with engine) and is projected to fall to approximately $80million by 2019 as production ramps up.
    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2014-03-12/f-35s-to-sell-for-as-low-as-80-million-in-2019-pentagon-says

    When you account for inflation, that means the F-35A will be roughly half the price of an F-22.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163293
    hopsalot
    Participant

    Wow this is a first LO apologising…

    I guess when it is a test pilot that disagrees then the Passive Aggressive gets switched off aye 😉

    One apology down… who knows how many to go?

    What is funny is that I think the critics were popping the champagne when they saw the original blog post. “This is it! The F-35 is finally doomed!” You can’t blame them for getting a little testy as more informed people start bringing things back to reality.

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163299
    hopsalot
    Participant

    Is this really the optimum of what you can contribute ?

    Pot…kettle…

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163347
    hopsalot
    Participant

    I repeat myself: if a plane that made its first flight in 2006 has only marginal advantages over others that went operative in the seventies…
    In this case it seems it is even inferior, it seems.

    Sure, just ignore the stealth, networking, data fusion, sensors… besides all that you mean, right?

    The USS Yorktown (CV-10, not CV-5) had 4 twin 5″ guns, 4 single 5″ guns, 8 quadruple 40mm cannons, and 46 20mm cannons.

    The USS Ford? Only a piddly handful of 20mm cannons. Think about that… a brand new carrier won’t have nearly the AAA firepower of a ship from 70+ years ago. This is a big scandal!

    in reply to: test pilot: "F-35 can't dogfight" #2163486
    hopsalot
    Participant

    It looks like Meteor will be an exception to that rule though…

    …and of course by “rule” he means “something I just made up.”

    An AMRAAM launched from a stationary truck can reach BVR. An AMRAAM launched from a fighter moving hundreds of miles an hour will certainly be able to reach BVR.

    http://www.kongsberg.com/en/kds/products/groundbasedairdefencesystems/nasams/

Viewing 15 posts - 1,141 through 1,155 (of 2,738 total)