LokeNothing wrong with that, I understand that they would prefer a new aircraft no matter what than no aircraft at all… However the polemic isn’t about that. It’s why they haven’t made it clear from the beginning that only the cheaper package would be selected no matter what you put inside ? It is was so then ET would not have be pre selected (i.e Brazil), Rafale would have bid on a different number of airframe, and Gripen would have cost way more…
Anyway I hope they solve that issue soon before the US can find a way to sell them some F-35… somehow !
Dassault (not Rafale) could not have “bid on a different number of airframe”, since the minimum of 22 was already reached.
The cheaper package is not to be chosen “no matter what your put inside”, had that been the case they would have bought Gripen A/B not Gripen E/F…
The polemic has in part been about false rumors spread (in part by Rafale fanboys) that the Swiss airforce prefers the Rafale not Gripen, the above posting shows however that this is false, the Swiss military does indeed prefer Gripen because it meets the requirements both technical and financial. Whereas Rafale met only the technical.
It’s not about choosing the “best” a/c but the one that gets the job done within a certain budget.
LokeYeah yeah, smaller than SH, yet the SH technologies were considered outdated… Smaller than ET but I’m yet to see where it’s proved an disadvantage.
Who said SH technologies were considered outdated?
Link please.
Rafale fans are all over the place after Rafale scored marginally better than a Hornet (not Super Hornet) in Switzerland, and after a win in India.
Rafale no doubt is a very good a/c however I think it was probably good for Rafale (and Typhoon and Gripen) fanboys that the SH did not participate in Switzerland, that could easily have been an embarrising experience for Europeans…. considering that the SH is considered a vast improvement over the Hornets that were the comparison in Switzerland.
My conclusion: Dassault, Eurofighter and Saab are all quite some distance behind the US companies in terms of technology…. C’est la vie.
LokeAs long as there are living veterans from WWII then it wont even be considered. Period.
Why not?
In Europe we have for the most part finalized WW2 several decades ago, and buying German subs was e.g. not a problem for Norway.
LokeThe Swiss officers support the Gripen
Army-At their meeting of delegates, which took place yesterday in Lucerne, the Swiss officers have supported the Gripen. What matters most to them is to acquire new combat aircraft quickly.
At 52, Brigadier Denis Vaud Froidevaux yesterday acceded to the presidency of the Swiss officers. This is the first time in 20 years that Romand was elected to this function. He succeeds Colonel Hans Schatzmann.
Ueli Maurer, the Patriotic
“You’re one of the best army in the world,” rejoiced Ueli Maurer, Federal Councillor in charge of the defense yesterday to the Swiss Society of officers, meeting in an assembly of delegates in Lucerne. In his argument for the beauty of the Swiss army, he explained that the militia system guaranteed exceptional skills in human resources. “You could say that Switzerland is an army.” In the process, he made a comparison with Spain and the United States. “In Spain, they must recruit mercenaries in South America. And the United States, there are ex-convicts who join the military! “In short, for him, the Swiss army, this is really the best in the world.The Swiss officers (SSO) adopted a resolution requesting the Federal Council and Parliament “the rapid acquisition of new fighter aircraft.” And according to testimony that “Sunday Morning” has gathered yesterday in Lucerne, where they attended the annual meeting of delegates of the SSO, the Gripen does not pose any problem for them. The important thing is best to acquire a new aircraft.
“Planning for the future development of the army, which provides an effective 100 000 troops and an annual budget of 5 billion francs in 2014, and the purchase of new fighter planes, must be guaranteed,” said Hammered Colonel Hans Schatzmann, President of the SSO.
The Federal Council attacked
His speech about the annual report of the company has also taken on the appearance of repeated attacks against the latest twists political security of the country. He particularly wants the Federal Council, which he accused turncoat. “The Federal Council has proposed to Parliament to return to the solution of a maximum strength of 80,000 military personnel and an annual budget capped at 4.4 billion francs. The SSO application to the Federal Council to respect the decision of Parliament (note: a workforce of 100,000 soldiers and an annual budget of 5 billion francs in 2014) and implement it without any other condition. “
Hans Schatzmann and regretting the competition between the tasks of the state: “More army seems to mean the Federal Council for less education, less research, less public transport, fewer and fewer environmental resources our farmers. This populist argument, if not demagogic Federal Council, completely covering the financial-political reality. Past twenty years, no department, except that of defense, has had to make savings. “He is joined in this argument by his successor, elected yesterday as president, Brigadier Denis Froidevaux Vaud. This is the first Romand to access this function for 20 years: “In three years, the army has donated 900 million francs that she had not used. But these savings are not reallocated to new fighter aircraft! In addition the Federal Council requires a reduction of defense costs. So where did the money go? This is outrageous and dishonest. Because if you buy another plane that the Gripen, more expensive, we put the army to its knees financially. “
This reasoning is shared by several officers. Just like the captain: “If this plane is good for Sweden, why would it not Lake Geneva to Lake Constance, especially as this is the cheapest?” Denis Froidevaux sees another advantage “We are defending a military trainer that uses and develops skills. It’s perfect: a part of the maintenance of Gripen can be done in Switzerland with companies instead. “This poses a problem for officers rather, it is communication that has surrounded the advent of sulfur Gripen. “It was ambiguous and incomplete by the Federal Council and especially the Department of Defense. And here I speak not of the assessment process but the motivations of the choice of the aircraft, “Major Benoît Dumas analysis, committee member of the League of Fribourg officers. A vision that adheres Denis Froidevaux: “It was not very professional. We started by saying that this airplane was ideal because of its price. While he was primarily talking about our needs in terms of safety. “
Maurer replica
Approached by “Sunday Morning” on the issue of communication, Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer, head of Department of Defense, who was also present in Lucerne, emerges as key: “There will be a new fighter aircraft, it agrees on that. As for communication, I do not think there was a problem. But there is a militia army, then there are so many opinions on the matter. “
Regarding the criticism of the SSO with respect to the Federal Council in terms of security policy, Maurer has set the record straight in plenum: “The Federal Council is only the tip of the iceberg. It’s too easy to pick on him because there is a whole process downstream. “
The army chief, Andre Blattman, summarized in an aside that the Gripen was clearly “the optimal aircraft. In financial and operational.”
Google translated from: http://www.lematin.ch/suisse/officiers-suisses-soutiennent-gripen/story/18897673
LokePer unit, the Typhoon bid is thought to have been more expensive than the Rafale, while operational costs would also have had a bearing on India’s decision. IHS Jane’s understands that Dassault’s total package price was bid at about 15 per cent to 17 per cent less than that from Eurofighter and that the Rafale was about USD5 million cheaper than the Typhoon per aircraft.
Read more: http://www.janes.com/products/janes/defence-security-report.aspx?ID=1065966025
Seems Janes is confirming what other sources have said in terms of pricing?
LokeYou were from 2007 to 2010 project manager of aviation for the Evaluation Partial Tiger Replacement (TTE). So you’re the fighter jet Gripen C / D flying, how was that?
It was very interesting and instructive. We are all three candidates, so the Rafale from France, the Euro Fighter from Germany and even the Gripen of Sweden flown for testing. In each case, all the pilots were flying on airplanes all the same tasks, and so the fighter jets could be compared uniformly. We tried to provide the most accurate and reliable assessment.
Can you stand as an expert in the Air Force after the final round for the Gripen, Type E/F?
Yes, 100 percent. It meet all three tested types identified by the military requirements of Switzerland. It depends on what you need and how much you are willing to pay. There are Ferraris, who can not drive off-road, and trucks that are just too slow. The Audi quattro is fast and affordable. And in this case even more money for the army, which indeed still waiting on new purchases. The Gripen can be for the air policing and air defense used in all weather conditions. He can fight ground targets and be used as a scout. The Gripen C / D is robust, is for relatively low operating costs and has proven itself in the Swedish Air Force and the best international standards.
Could you discuss the decision with Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer?
Yes, I think it’s good that Ueli Maurer will consult with various experts. Decisions and the political responsibility but must ultimately own the Federal Council.
Can you understand that there is now a media circus is coming?
Partly. There are some who doubt whether everything is up politically and technically correct. Since I can only say that I am fully committed, even though I am no longer responsible. I put my hand into the fire, that’s what I’m headed and what we did, was made possible. The three candidate countries have confirmed that we have the most challenging but also a fair evaluation conducted. The more it is now a mess, that recently reached an interim report to the public. This interim report is taken out of context and does not show the context of the overall evaluation. Finally, we were obliged to discretion. As someone has acted criminally. The report is subject to military Vertaulichkeit.
Why are these reports are subject to the confidentiality level?
The present provider fillet pieces on their aircraft. You must disclose all the technology behind it, the used system services and computer programs, everything. Since it is understandable that these secret data should be treated as confidential. There are trade secrets as elsewhere. However, the standstill agreement and promise was unfortunately injured, has been abused. This confidence in Switzerland has been weakened even more, as with the banks. That annoys me. Which is to say, that this is an early 2008 report concerns that arose before the first full report.
Switzerland is not buying now, but the aircraft that are flown. What’s the difference?
There are four points that have been improved. These include, first, a more powerful engine, the 33-percent more power than that of C / D. The plane was modified so that it can accommodate a larger tank. In addition, 46 percent more kerosene to be carried in the aircraft. It has two other Waffenaufhängestationen. Fourth, a very modern radar was installed, the Aesa radar. This radar does not work mechanically, but with an active electronic beam steering.
But now, the new model, the Gripen E / F, never flown for testing. Switzerland bought the cat in the bag?
We have tested the old model is very intense. We were in the valuation of improvements very cautious and evaluated with a restrictive rating. In addition, the new systems are known, one must first invent anything new. Knowing the radar. Behind a large tank or behind the additional Waffenaufhängestationen is not a new technology, but more range and longer duration. Even the new engine is already used in other aircraft, for example, the new F / A 18 E / F (Super Hornet) were tested.
Now, if the new model would not match but the ideas of Switzerland, could be put on the brakes?
Saab would have to stand straight up what is promised is actually implemented.
Why the new model has never flown for testing?
At the time of evaluation, there was no point in flying to the technology demonstrator already. Then the whole lengthy evaluation work had begun again from scratch. It was decided from the beginning that we fly the then-current models, which are in the Air Force of the candidates in action. If we later want to fly the newer version of the Gripen, we would have to fly the aircraft of the revised French and the Germans. The decision in favor of the Gripen E / F, other factors were crucial, as the cost of maintenance, cost, operating costs, training, exchange, cooperation between the countries. So, factors not related directly to the flying performance.
When a Swiss pilot, flying its first Gripen E / F?
At least in the first week of May this year, a test pilot of an Air Force pilot and Armasuisse the new Gripen E / F (technology demonstrator) as two-seaters.
Google translated from: http://www.onz.ch/artikel/112298/
33% increase in thrust is significantly higher than what has been stated officially from Saab. This implies 24,000 lbs version of the F414 engine.
A 46% increase in internal fuel capacity is also more than what has been officially stated.
Those sneaky Swedes…
A Gripen E/F in a2a config and with 50% internal fuel will be quite a beast!
LokeAt least it shows a limited German intrest to have more Typhoons for a2g at first, when the Typhoon ist the mainstay for a2a.
Indeed, and that raises the question, if one of the Eurofighter partners are investing this money in the Tornado instead of in the Typhoon, what does that tell prospective Typhoon customers?
In particular since Germany is one of the few (probably the only) Eurofighter partner that will not get the F-35 for quite some time yet…
LokeThe Swiss evaluation did account for an enhanced Gripen NG proposal and did raise the scores to account for that. It still came in behind the Rafale and the Typhoon.
In some areas it came in behind, in other areas not. When taking everything into account it did come out on top, since it won.
I suggest you read this: http://www.livemint.com/2012/02/22223353/India8217s-quest-for-the-to.html?h=B
Lokecourtesy of Olybrius from mp :
There is plenty to do , the French fighter aircraft contains for example 25 kilometers of cabling and 300,000 rivets!
The Gripen includes some 30 km wiring, 60.000 parts and 40 computers.
http://www.dutchaviationsupport.eu/Articles/PV-Gripen-UK.pdf
Gripen beats Rafale again! This time by 5 km!!! :p
LokeOh, sorry, “upper 40s”, according to what some schmow posted on f16.net…
http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=155869
$45m 2001 = $58 m today with normal inflation.
And IOC in 2013 for the A version! :diablo:
Recent interview with a Saab spokesperson:
“You clearly can not be complacent and to boast too much, but these companies now go out into the world to do business on a purely commercial basis may not have become known as the most cost effective. You just have to look on the Joint Strike Fighter project. We do not understand how you can spend so much money, “he says.
Spud, affordability is a key requirement to the F-35. According to some it has already failed on this key requirement.
LokeMy Chinese is rather weak these days — could somebody translate the most important bits and pieces?
Thanks!
LokeThe RAN is really watching the development of solid state electrics- the Northrop Grumman MW-1 Super Conductor is really showing promise.
What is this?
LokeCAS is a joke when compared to the response time, effectiveness and cost of modern guided artillery projectiles.
In Iraq and Afghanistan, there was considerable effort to reduce CAS response times from >20 minutes to 8-12 minutes (measured clock time from request to bomb on target). CAS delivers a PGM with 1-3 meter accuracy.
Modern artillery such as GMLRS unitary and Excalibur 155mm provides the same 1-3 meter accuracy, but with a response time less than 3 minutes. And the cost (munitions plus delivery system) is two orders of magnitude less that CAS.
This is why F-35B makes no sense for the USMC. Trade studies back in 1994 showed the silliness of USMC STOVL when compared to modern artillery, unless your real motive is to keep USMC STOVL rice bowls full while reliving the nostalgia of the Battle of Saipan. :rolleyes:
But an airplane will have a much larger range than artillery (even the F-35B has longer range than artillery!) in addition it has sensors the artillery does not have.
Perhaps one could suggest that artillery and airplanes for CAS are complementary? Use artillery when you can, and plane when you cannot?
LokeThe generator set on the Type 45 produces 47MW the electric propulsion is rated at 40MW so in theory that leaves 7MW. The system is all AC and rated at 4.16kV the frequencies, voltages and load are controlled by computers to a high quality. The voltage is stepped down for the ships services to 440V and 115V. I know little about rail guns but if any existing ships are suited to one then I would expect it would be the Type 45 considering that it has a very advanced IEP.
Indeed, the Integrated Electrical Propulsion (IEP) system on the 45 is the reason I also mentioned it.
The type 45 got 2 very advanced WR-21 gas turbines which according to Wikipedia generates 41.5 MW each, however according to RR it can go higher: http://www.rolls-royce.com/marine/products/diesels_gas_turbines/gas_turbines/wr21.jsp
The WR-21 is the first production aero-derivative gas turbine to incorporate compressor inter-cooling and exhaust heat recuperation technologies that deliver low specific fuel consumption across the engines entire operating range. The 25MW WR-21 has a footprint is no larger than current simple cycle marine gas turbines and offers a 25-27 per cent fuel saving.
In addition it has 2 Diesel generators at 2 mW each so a total of 47MW as mentioned above.
LokeDepends on the energy source they are using. If they are using capacitor banks, then a retrofit should be easier, due to greater flexibility of an all electrical system. If the power source is a compensated pulse generator then it is going to be tricky, because unlike capacitor banks, they require massive reinforcements, cannot be deployed in a distributed layout and should be more maintenance intensive due to larger number of moving parts.
But they need to charge the capacitors, so I would assume they would need a large electrical power source in addition to the space to fit the system?
If you want to fire 10 shots a minute then I would guess you need to charge pretty fast which could imply a large electrical source. That’s why I suggested the type 45.
Any electrical engineers who could comment on this?
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