LokeThat’s a nice trick but it can be performed by most if not all 4. gen fighters…
LokeYes it does seem that Typhoon has this capability however according to this article
the limitation seems to be the low number of Typhoon pilots that are trained for a2g. So they have therefore in some cases (as mentioned in the article) used the Tornado to designate the target and the launched the Paweway from the Typhoon.
Interesting…
LokeOh, and before you ask, the reason why the Rafale has that system
is because France knew when it ordered it that we would NOT build
an equivalent to the F-A 18G! So that each plane would have to fend
off baddies by itself!And it does SEAD-lite, ya know!?:cool:
Good day all, Tay.
So you are saying that it will be able to attack an S-300 system without relying on some jamming support?
That sounds impressive indeed.
BTW also the internal jammer of Gripen is rumored to have some “special” capabilities, but there is very little information out there….
LokeFollow-up on something* I posted a little while back
and to which nobody answered.http://www.livemint.com/2011/04/15221231/Defence-contract-MoD-likely-t.html?atype=tp
The Indian proposal will be “softened up”!
The question being : In whom’s favor?*Post #603 of this here thread!
I would guess; it would be helpful to the contenders backed by smaller nations that may have difficulties meeting such a large offset requirement in a short time period?
So; Gripen, and perhaps to some extent Rafale?
LokeTwice the GDP of the UK, second biggest foreign exchange reserves in the world – can’t afford to pay? :confused:
How big are those foreign reserves? I thought Japan had a huge debt? 225% of GDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sovereign_states_by_public_debt
Granted, they do have a lot of privat savings, but still…
Anyway I agree with Aurel; they will go for American.
LokeAn unproven aircraft like Gripen would have been unable to fly uninvited in Libya. After several weeks of bombing, Gripen can safely fly 10-minutes parade per day over Libya.
And how do you know that the Gripen would not be able to fly a similar mission? Gripen does have built-in EWS…
Personally I suspect that both SPECTRA and the EWS-39 will offer just limited protection, it is after all not dedicated stand-off jamming like the Growler.
Anyway very little is known about EWS and SPECTRA, so I don’t see how you can compare them and conclude that one offers protection and the other don’t.
LokeThat would be relevant if Japan wanted delivery today, which the do not.
True, but my understanding was that they would like a quite rapid introduction. It could also be that loss of some F-2 in the recent disaster could make the need even more pressing.
Does anybody know when they plan to introduce the new a/c?
Anyway I agree that if they can wait for the F-35 then most likely they will go for it, and I also believe that the SH would be “backup solution” if the F-35 would not be ready in time.
Still a lot of test flights to perform. And as already pointed out the SH is ready today, and will also improve as time goes by. The USN will make sure of that.
LokeSpectra EW is a bit obsolete in its current form, but those long range SAM’s aren’t that hard to dodge with a decent MAWS
I don’t know if SPECTRA is obsolete or not, but to my knowledge no air force would send 4.5 gen fighters to perform a “direct” attack of a double-digit SAM (e.g. S300).
An attack would be stand-off by cruise missiles and at such a distance that SPECTRA EW most likely would not play a role…
It remains to be seen how close even F-35 can get to the S-300…
When Rafale gets the AESA and some other sensor upgrades it will IMHO become one of the most capable 4.5 fighters on this planet.
Lokehehe.. the ABJ crowd (Anything But JSF) strikes again đ
Seriously? The only think the SH has over the JSF is price (oh wait, it looses that when you add all the upgrades you want). In virtually every other category (range w/warload, sensors, survivability) the F-35 wins hands-down.
Wrong; it has more advantages that price.
It’s available today.
Also, it may offer more opportunities for Japan in terms of industrial involvement. I say it may because I am not sure. Could be of course that LM could fork out some of it’s own work to Japan. THe partners however would not accept to give up any work to Japan at this stage. So depending on how much work LM could give to Japan, SH may have an advantage there.
The costs of F-35 are still unknown in particular the operating costs. It may become more expensive to operate than you think in particular if you want to maintain the low RCS.
LokeOperational:
Japan’s requirements are largely defensive in nature. A2A-centric with limited A2G requirements. JASDF’s most modern platform, the F-2, is A2G-centric.
JASDF’s A2G requirements, such as they are, do not call for a stealthy, penetrating bomb truck but rather a stand-off missile truck. The F-35 is limited in internal carriage of anti-ship weapons and other cruise missiles, and external carriage both strips the F-35 of its greatest advantage over the other platforms, and – per data showing stuff-all benefit for F-35 from EFTs – likely compromises its range to an unusual degree. Super Hornet is of course a better missile truck than Typhoon, particularly Typhoon in its current state, but A2A performance – the primary criterion – is a different story.
Industrial:
Japan will be looking to use this program to further develop its industrial capabilities as a bridge between F-2 and ATD-X. They’re not going to want to be limited in their ability to develop the aircraft. F-35 would impose significant constraints on Japan in this respect whereas Super Hornet and Typhoon would not. Japanese industry has lobbied against F-35 upon this basis.
However where Typhoon edges out Super Hornet is in its development potential. The maturity of the Super Hornet platform arguably works against it in this respect. The Japanese can do all sorts of things to Typhoon, and the program is in such a dire financial state that they can essentially dictate terms to the existing Eurofighter partners whilst using their resources to mitigate costs to Japan. US in contrast has little interest in developing Super Hornet.
Political:
When the DPJ came to power a couple years back they upset a half-century of LDP rule. One of the DPJ’s election platforms was the promise to renegotiate relationship between Japan and the US, to restore Japan’s dignity as an independent nation. To this end, promise was made to evict Americans from Okinawa. The Japanese government failed to achieve this, and Prime Minister Hatoyama was forced to resign as a result.
The ability of the Japanese government to come through on its promise to the citizenry has been hampered by Japanese security realities, i.e. Japanese economic lethargy in face of rising China, and most recently they’ve suffered further humiliation by having to accept significant US aid in response to tsunami. Essentially, the Japanese government is desperate for a way to signal its independence from the US that doesn’t actually compromise its relationship with the US and thereby harm Japanese interests.
Typhoon is that symbol.
You are arguing well… however I don’t agree completely.
Operational: True F-35 has main focus on a2g however IMHO it will actually beat the Typhoon in a2a, at least when it can fit 6 a2a missiles internally. Perhaps perception is too important in Japan though.
Industrial: Here you may have a point w.r.t. the F-35, however I do believe the SH still could offer a lot of opportunities for future development. http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2011/02/09/352926/aero-india-video-boeing-reveals-advanced-super-hornet-options.html
Political: I admit little knowledge of Japanese politics however I think I have read that the current Japanese government in spite of signalling a more independent line at the end of the day still remain close to the US, in part because of a more assertive China and Russia. Also that the US did give some assistance during the disaster could that perhaps also strengthen relations not weaken them?
In addition to the three factors you mention, perhaps also economical considerations will be made? The disaster that hit the Japanese economy could perhaps make cheaper and more cost-effective planes more attractive?
It would be great for European industry if Typhoon should win, but I still doubt it.
On verra.
LokeNo.
Well then I would be interested in hearing your arguments for your position, if you don’t mind sharing them đ
LokeThey were so desperate to bomb something they would have bomb a tin can with Gaddafi’s face on it.
Interesting… I wonder if this will motivate the Swedes to also try to drop a few bombs here and there, perhaps in self defence?
LokeTyphoon on account of the triple alignment of operational, industrial and political interests.
You are joking I assume?
LokeWell I expect Dassault/French gov will be a bit tetchy about not getting an RFP.
I don’t think so; AFAIK they have expressed a wish to not submit a response since they believe they cannot win (and I think they are right, this is for the US to win).
Why invite them if they are not interested in participating?
LokeAfter a lot of talk about the Formidable Rafale and Amazing Typhoon, perhaps it’s about time to say a few words about the Mighty Gripen?
From the Gripen Info thread:
On RCS reduction:
Effort will also be expended on reducing the aircraftâs radar cross section (RCS) through modifications to the air-intakes and wing leading edge and the use of composite materials and new surface coatings. RCS reduction measures are not new to the Gripen programme. âFrom the very start we have worked with this issue,â explains Lehander. âAfter the latest changes we have made, [reducing RCS] is nothing more to do with the aircraft, it is the weapons.â
As a result of this realisation, further work on this aspect of the Gripen NGâs design has included the possibility of installing weapons within conformal fuel tanks in a similar way to that proposed by Boeing as part of the proposed âSilent Eagleâ variant of the F-15.
The issue of RCS reduction for the aircraftâs stores will also be helped by the new weaponry employed by the Gripen NG such as the clearance of the MBDA Meteor beyond visual range (BVR) and Diehl IRIS-T within visual range WVR) air-to-air missiles. âAMRAAMs [advanced medium range air-to-air missiles are] not very good RCS wise, whereas the new missiles have RCS thinking behind them,â Lt Col Nilsson points out. New weapons pylons are also planned as part of this effort, âthe survivability and RCS area is continuous workâ, adds Lt Col Nilsson.
On the Skyward G:
Selex Gallileo is offering its newSkyward G for the requirement. At present the system, which pulls through from the companyâs experience on the Eurofighter Typhoonâs Passive InfraRed Airborne Tracking Equipment PIRATE) system, remains in development, but it is expected to be completed in 2011 with flight testing expected to commence the same year, according to company officials.
Future sensor development:
Further improvements to the sensor suite are also being evaluated, including the potential to add 360 degree passive sensor coverage to the aircraft in a similar way to Northrop Grummanâs Distributed Aperture System (DAS). Studies have also been initiated to examine the potential anti-stealth applications of Saabâs Coherent All RAdio BAnd Sensing (CARABAS) ultra-wideband ground surveillance synthetic aperture radar (SAR) technology in an air-to-air role. âWe already have this technology in the VHF band,â Lt Col Nilsson asserts, but âare there any tactical applications [in the air-to-air role]? Could we rebuild this as a stealth finder? There are studies.”
Then there is the 1000-element Saab/Selex swash-plate AESA.
IMHO RCS and sensors are very important parameters. RCS is not known of course however I think we get an important hint when it’s stated that the way forward to reduce RCS is to replace the pylons and a2a missiles…
I would hazard a guess that all 3 Eurocanards are in the same range in terms of RCS, the reason being that once you reach the stage where the payload becomes the dominant contributor it’s difficult to go much lower. And it seems that NG will reach that stage.
Do we have any indications that Rafale and Typhoon have reached a similar level of RCS reduction?
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