Hmm.

I don’t know how “neutral” Jackonicko is in this matter.

I just want to make a comment: If he is perceived as not being neutral by the French, then perhaps they will decide to not talk to him more than what is necessary.

I wonder if that could be one partical explanation why Jackonicko seems so well connected in the Eurofighter community, with lots of “unnamed sources” but seems less connected in the French community? Or am I completely wrong here?

So “I know the guy” is more credible than a public article in the press? I don’t know, but if what the article says is a false accusation, aren’t there laws in brasil permitting SAAB and named persons to sue the newspaper who published these “false accusations”?

The source I have was given 2-3 pages before on this very board.. if you’re too lazy to read it, I pasted teh part of it I base my writing on… what source do you have to say it’s not true?

FABs signature? If the article says true, its the “relations” of the retired brigadier who signed for the FAB..; so much about “FAB agreeing”

what did you show until know? a precise article is published, and you say “there are no sources”.. prove it

LOL.

I think you either did not read/comprehend what I said and/or you did not read/comprehend what the article you’re referring to, actually said.

strange how you know everybody personnaly, and everyone is a “good honest man”…

I don’t know thempersonally, and, to be honest, don’t care anyway… but I can read (until now), and the article of a brasilian newpaper stated clearly, without an ounce of hesitation that these gentlemen were hired by SAAB (that means they’re working for SAAB, paid by SAAB, etc, etc…)

like it or not, their job, which they accepted if they were hired by SAAB, as such, is to promote SAAB, not to care about FAB’s interests or Embraer’s ones…

So, considering their connections (FAB and Embraer) depicted in the article (which they were most certainly hired for), the idea of “honest, impartial men” may be right, except that that would mean their “honesty” goes towards their employer… SAAB.

And if you believe they cared only about “impartially telling the FAB what’s in its best interest, then, either you are the one needing to remove your “rose tinted glasses” or admit they’re not so honest (taking their paycheck while taking into consideration someone’s else’s interests than the ones of their boss which is SAAB )

again, you can’t have it both ways

:rolleyes:

Where did Hammer say “impartial”?

It seems to me you keep twisting things….

What is your point exactly? Have you just discovered what lobbyism is about and now you want to inform the world about your discoveries? Surprise: most of us already know and understand what lobbyism is about and how it works.

Well, these 3 countries have all one thing in common: tiny air space. No real need for extended range. Not the case with brazil though, which understandably would be happy with more loiter time.

Also, I *think* that the F414 has a better special consumption rate, but the NG AFAIK has roughly the same weight (but less drag) as the C/D with extra tanks, so its loiter time should be already better.

NG can do a 5-hour maritime recce mission; a2a mission radius with one drop tank only: 1300km + 30 minutes on site. The 40% increase in internal fuel make a huge difference and the more fuel efficient engine also helps.

if you read the article a few posts before mine, you’ll even have the names of these people…

interesting part:

“To try to craft the Gripen NG, the Saab has hired retired brigadier Fernando Cima, former coordinator of Copac the first edition of FX. With influence over many officers, Up is always received in the FAB with the reverence that his patent upon, right up to salute the committee members themselves. Another manufacturer hired by a Swedish engineer Anastasios Katsanos, who was vice president of Embraer.

Embraer has come to consider the purchase of part of the Saab through a swap of shares, considering the possible selection of the Gripen NG.”

No, cima was the “former coordinator” of the previous FX competition, years ago. It does not say that he was on the FX2 committee.

This story is terribly biased — do you seriously believe that Dassault (and Boeing) also did not hire local people to lobby? Who did Dassault hire, and what are the relations between those people and the FAB, the committee, the politicians, etc. etc. Nothing is said about that…

See You(instead of your) very detailed question and the lack of ‘to’ between say and you. I doubt Eurofighter guys have such poor grammar.

If they are Spanish or Italian I would not doubt it at all.

Even some Germans have a less than perfect Grammar.

Or perhaps it’s an American working in Europe? Oops, sorry, me joking…

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSLDE60B1EH20100112?type=marketsNews

PARIS, Jan 12 (Reuters) – Dassault Aviation’s (AVMD.PA) Rafale fighter plane stands a good chance of winning its first-ever export contract with Brazil but it may have to make more price sacrifices, analysts said on Tuesday.
…..

Despite the perceived price pressure on Dassault, analysts are still confident the Rafale has a 50 to 75 percent chance of winning a deal with Brazil, thanks in part to political ties between France and Brazil.
…..

DASSAULT TOO SMALL?

The relatively low rate of Rafale production, approximately one a month, also leaves little room for manoeuvre for Dassault to cut the price tag, analysts say.

“If you compare the (Rafale) production to that of Eurofighter or potentially the F-35, clearly Dassault is producing far, far less,” said Rupinder Vig, an analyst with Morgan Stanley. “Their ability to undercut is going to be very difficult.”

The Rafale’s high-specification design explains its high price tag, but it might also make it unnecessarily powerful for Brazil’s needs, argued Nick Cunningham, an analyst with Evolution Securities.

“It’s sort of questionable whether developing countries can justify the unit cost (of aircraft like the Rafale), and whether regionally there is a sufficient threat for them to need aircraft offering that kind of performance,” he said.

Now, you make a sum of that:

– SAAB employee inside the comittee who made the report
– SAAB employee “inside embraer”

who can believe one second that the “leaked” report was anything by SAAbs spinning?

That is a pretty strong accusation.

Lobbying is something all companies do, both Saab and Dassault. But to claim that Saab has had “Saab employees” inside the committe is quite strong. Do you have any proof of that?

If that were the case I think that Lula would have reacted to more than just the leak…

You are wrong to state that such a committe should not look at non-technical parameters. To my knowledge such a committe normally does look at all parameters, including ToT, industrial offsets, and price. I think it is also not uncommon to recommend a “preferred alternative”, although the final decision is normally political.

What you and many others fail to realize is that if more than one fighter meets the technical criteria, then one will normally look at other factors like cost, ToT etc. Only fanboys believe that the “technically superior” fighter should be chosen; in the real world that’s not how it works. In India for instance they now try to be more strict about this and the armed forces (including the IAF) are being instructed to recommed the cheapest alternative that meets all technical specifications.

There is another side to this: The FAB presumably has some idea as to what kind of budget they will be getting for the coming years. They also have a pretty good idea of how many a/c they need, how much munitions, and how much training their pilots need.

As I have said before; I would rather have 120 Gripen NG than 60 Rafale. Seems that the FAB agrees with me 🙂

And that’s another thing which is lacking completely in your version of what has happened: Apart from Lula, don’t you think that also people within FAB would have protested rather strongly if Saab managed to corrupt the committe and present a different view than what the FAB actually has?

Those people would have had not just Lula but also FAB after them!

Can you please point to some FAB statements demostrating that also FAB disagreed with the results of the first report? If not, I would tend to doubt that this “corruption” of the committe really happened, and that this is just another dirty trick from those that are opposed to Gripen winning.