Searching in old archive I found this post from Hyperion, quite interesting read:

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1355569&postcount=357

On HMD:

* The pdfs also mention that the greek pilots praise the usefuleness of JHMCS in F16 (not directly comment on the Rafale, but the absense of it is obviously correlated and IMHO a reason on why there was no dogfight and only BVR engagements).

Also some other interesting pieces of info in there:

On the 4vs4 encounter between CdG Rafale and F16 B52+.

This time the french aircrafts also used the trainning function of Spectra, in mild jamming mode, which were immediately detected from the greek aircrafts ECCM, which reply automatically with no pilot input.

The BVR tactics used by the French didn’t impress, while they reported all virtual shots as kills.But without wanting to go into detail, observing the route of the target in relation with the lock on it, keeping time (counting) in relation with the virtual launch, the greek pilots managed to arrive to safe conclusions. This time, the majority of the greek shots were inside the “no escape” envelope of AMRAAM, which gave clear advantage to the greek side. The tactic of using data link, where 2 different radars could lock onto 4 aircrafts, taking advantage of the function that the new aircraft gives, made obvious in practice the advantages of the new F16 version. With special tactics planned by our pilots, in quite some cases, they were approaching unobserved opposite to the french aircrafts, a fact that was shown by their reactions.

The success of the greek aircrafts against the Rafale M was afterwards confirmed by comparing the shot reports of the French with the F16 videos, where it was shown that most shots were of low Pk (kill probability).

As a general conclusion, one may say that any Rafale’s superiority, in the above scenarios, is marginal, with high kill percentage for the greek side. Also it should be noted that in that period of time, the CdG was cooperating with a greek EMB-145H Erieye with the aim to evaluate the interoperability of the 2 sides. More in detail Link 11 and Link 16 were tested. From the time of take-off from Elefsis airfield, within 10 minutes the greek aircraft had established contact with the french carrier, certifying capability of cooperation in network-centered operations for both sides.

Aegean Gust.

4 Rafale F2 B, 1 Rafale F2 C.

The recent excercise wasn’t the first occasion for a HAF squadron to counter the Rafale. In 2006 the Rafale M from CdG partecipated in excercises with F16block52+ and F4E AUP. But the Rafale M of the time, were F1, a version centered in air-to-air role with somewhat limited capabilities. In the Aegean Gust partecipated Rafale F2, with improved air to air capabilities, including the data link between aircrafts of a formation, combined with FSO and data fusion…

… Both greek and french pilots flew as backseaters in each other planes. As for the engagements:

4 sorties occured in the morning and 3 in the evening of Tuesday in 2 vs 2 scenarios, in BVR. The greek aircrafts were B52+. On Wednesday 8 sorties with Rafale B in 2 waves (morning, evening), with the partecipation of 1 french pilot and 4 greek backseaters. This time it was 4 vs 4. The greek aircrafts were B52+, B50D, B30.
Something that appeared strange to the greek pilots, was that while according to the HAF policy the pilots were doing the last pre-takeoff check of their planes (Leak check), the French pilots were taking position on the runway without doing so.

The impressions of the greek pilots were variable, as is natural , and their observations quite interesting. The whole of the greek F16 pilots, found the cockpit particularly functional, although a bit small, as is used in all french aircrafts. Also, the best impressions left the glass cockpit advanced disposition. It is known that the high operational output of the Rafale is result of high performance, excellent behaviour and friendly MMI that adopts to the high workload in multirole missions. The existance of so many displays and the characteristical absense of analog instruments, was natural to make a big impression to the greek pilots, who apart the Falcon’s MFDs, are used to analog instruments. Some in fact, told us that they would feel more comfortable, if some analog instruments have been kept as backups in cases of malfunction or failiure of the electric system. Of course it is certain that safety valves has been thought, while evolution indicates that full glass cockpit will dominate in the future, as will happen in the case of F35 too.

It is also natural to be impressed by the high situation awareness provided by the Rafale thanks to data fusion. The Rafale, as the greek pilots had the chance to see, can receive tracking data from RBE2, Spectra, OSF, IFF, MICA IR sensors and accompanying aircrafts, ground command and control facilities and AWACS, elaborate them and produce system tracking data (system tracks). These are superior to quality compared to the single data of the individual sensors. This data is then used for fire control and is shown in the central tactical display and can be transmitted to fellow aircrafts. So, at a glance at the tactical display, the pilots can see the position of targets that may be inside the radar cone or outside and even in the rear hemisphere, no matter if the radar is on or off!

Also, it was verified that OSF provides advantage in air combat. As the greek pilots observed, once the target is locked from the radar, its image is then displayed in the central display which facilitates very much the target identification even in great distances.A similar function is provided in the F16 by the Lantirn Pod in air to air mode, with the difference that the backseater can make a search independent of the radar. On the contrary on the Rafale, the OSF is primarily slaved on the radar.

The best of impressions left to the greek pilots the performace of the Rafale’s self protection suite, confirming the french reputation in the sector since the time that HAF operated the ICMS2000 in the Mirage2000.

Small reprimands were made to some small but important details, like the fact of the abscense of a countdown timer in the HUD when a BVR missile is flying towards its target. The greek F16 pilots are used to such an indicator on the lower left of the HUD, indicating the “Time On Target” of the Amraam and the time remaining until the Amraam’s autonomous seeker is activated. If the missile fails tracking, then the indication “Loose” appears over the locked target on the HUD and the pilot is aware that the shot has failed. Something like this wasn’t found on the Rafale, leading to a difficulty in the interpretation of the BVR shots during the engagements. And this, because the French were regarding that after a certain range , a MICA shot was always successful. As a result, the arrival to safe conclusions, was problematic.

Beyond that, it was also commented positively the agility of the Rafale. Of course the greek pilots still think of the F16 as a particularly capable aircraft in dogfight.
In the air, the Rafale is very agile, but for the greek pilots the sense of flying was very different from that of the F16. It was commented as perfectly stable, with very good response in all speeds and manouvers. Very good impressions were also left by the automatic pilot as well as the ability of maintaining very low speed during approach, prior to landing.

… The Rafale certainly proved that it is a very capable aircraft in the hands of the excellently trainned french pilots who have battle experience. The encounter with F16s, gave the greek pilots the opportunity to measure the F16 capabilities against a 4th gen aircraft, while it showed yet another time that the level of HAF pilots is one of the best in NATO airforces.

That could be the defining factor because there is a planned path to an Operational version of nEUROn and HAI are right on the ball with this one.

Since these two systems are also planned to be complementary.

I’d like to see nEURON used as an advanced Forward Sensor platform, useful in A2A as well as A2G…

The work done by HAI was excellent and their capabilties are much welcome in the nEUROn project, they delivered early and have quiet a bit of work to do as well…

I think Saab is also involved with Neuron? Perhaps also the twin seated Gripen could be well suited to control them…

Finnaly when looking at the last paragraph I don’t doubt a second that he thinks precisely to some other 4th gen fighters.

I disagree!! 🙂

It is worth remembering that stealth-optimised, or fifth-generation fighters such as the Lockheed F-22 Raptor and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter are not only likely to be hugely expensive, but they can only preserve their stealth characteristics by carrying a very limited weapons load in their internal weapon bays.

Therefore, in the current and predicted financial defence climate, it could well be that so-called fourth-generation fighters will remain the aircraft of choice for most nations – perhaps even including the UK.

he then goes on to remind us that Rafale is carrier capable.

Another thing to keep in mind is how pros evaluate aircrafts: They first make a list of requirements. Then the compare the aircraft to that list of requirements, NOT to any other aircrafts.

My conclusion is: The Rafale meets (or exceeds) all the requirements Collins have to a multirole fighter jet!

Would Typhoon do the same? To some extent irrelevant, however my guess the answer would be No, mainly due to the reference to the carrier capability.

He is not comparing to the Typhoon, but the F-35, no less 😀

As Trimble said, the fact that he has not flown the F-35 is also somewhat irrelevant. The point is: Does the aircraft meet the requirements, yes or no?

If it meets the requirements, well then it meets the requirements. There may be other aircraft out there that also meet his requirements; That is however a different discussion…

His reference to carrier capability and “this could be used even by UK” and the reference to the F-35 gives it all away…. Forget about Typhoon, this is really F-35 vs Rafale… The way I read this is that Collins suggest that if the F-35B (or C) becomes too expensive the UK can safely pick the Rafale instead!

To get the F-35 to carry 7 tons would require full internals, a dual launcher on the outboard A2G station (with 2x 2k lb JDAMS), and bags on the inner A2G station. Even with this, 2500 km is really pushing it.

Do you have a link to where it says that the F-35 can carry 7 tons for 2500 km? It is indeed very impressive!

Yes, it can: 5,200 lbs inside the weapons bay, the rest up to 18,000 lbs on external pylons.

And it can fly 2500 km with all that ? Can you provide a link?