LokeLoke.
Gripen is in a class of its own, that of the Mirage 2000 before it and have very respectable performances in both roles.
Trying to compare it to a Rafale or a Typhoon is not a smart thing to do.
Mon ami,
I agree but only 50%. Of course Gripen and Mirage are single-engine light-weight fighters whereas Rafale and Typhoon are twin-engine medium-size fighters.
However, in some roles the NG will give in particular the Rafale a tough challenge, I suspect in particular a2a.
Consider BVR: Rafales AESA will have approx. 850 TR elements, vs the 1000 elements of NG, that’s 18% more! In addition the swashplate will give a higher scan volume but also a longer range since the positioning can be optimized. The NG will also have a very very low RCS; RCS of the A was 0.1m2; the C had significantly lower than that, and the NG will have a significantly lower RCS than the C… First look, first shot!
Add to that a strongly improved MMI and sensor fusion, a very good data link, supercruise, and to top it off the Meteor missile, in a 4 vs 4 I would expect the NG to dominate over the Rafale in BVR.
In WVR it may be more equal, both will have they strong and weak points. However also here the NG will have some advantages, like the HMD in combination with the HOBS of IRIS-T.
You may want to bring up SPECTRA, however the NG will have a strongly improved EWS… Look up NORA — of course the most interesting bits are highly classified. Already the current Gripen has a decent EWS; The NG will lift that to a highe level with combining the AESA with the other EW stuff.
Of course the Rafale can also get the Meteor and the IRIS-T; then I think they become roughly equal in a2a.
In a2g the Rafale is to be preferred, however if one considers that the price is rougly twice as high…. I would much rather have 120 NG than 60 Rafale 😀
For many missions one NG can perform as well as one Rafale; For some missions it cannot, but then you can just send more NG… Quantity is a quality of it’s own.
Typhoon will of course give the NG a tougher challenge in A2A. However also the TYphoon should not feel too safe….
In simulations the NG scored 6:1 against the future SU-35, however that was in a multirole config, it would most likely have performed even better in a clean a2a config.
On paper the F-15 should always be superior to the F-16, however in real tests against the F-15 the F-16 surprised a lot of people… And the gap between the Rafale and the NG will be much smaller than the gap between the F-15 and the F-16….
LokeBrazil: Vendors prefer Gripen
Google translated:
Unlike the acquisition program of French helicopters, as the FAB has chosen to strengthen the industrial counterparts, with greater involvement of the Brazilian production of parts and service, the fighter program focuses on strategic technological capability of industry national future construction of a supersonic fighter. Among the companies that operate more in the area of engineering development preference is given by the Swedish Gripen, the proposed joint development of aircraft.
“The proposal of the Saab is the one that best serves the interests of the tobacco industry, because it provides for a joint development of the aircraft. Within 10 to 15 years we have jurisdiction to make a supersonic fighter with Brazilian engineering,” says CEO of Imbra Aerospace, Jairo Candide. The executive, who is also director of the Department of Defense Fiesp, coordinated the negotiation rounds of the three competitors in the F-X2. He said most of the 150 companies that participated in these meetings also revealed a preference for offering Swedish, with regard to technology transfer.
“This is the feeling of industry and the Brazilian government also has said he does not buy more products from the shelf in the area of defense.” The entrepreneur’s view is also shared by the director of Ciesp Sao Jose dos Campos, Almir Fernandes. He said at least 30 of the 50 companies of the Brazilian Air Force believe that the Saab offers better opportunities for participation by such enterprises in the development of strategic technologies, from the design phase to the production level.
Led by Akaer, companies Friuli, Winnstal, Minoan and Friuli are already working on developing the new game Swedish Gripen NG, the project was provided by the manufacturer Saab F-X2 program. The T1, a holding company that brings together the five Brazilian companies, will be responsible for the design and production of the fuselage, rear fuselage and wings of the Gripen NG.
“Producing parts does not add any value. What we want is to master the technology development of the fighters for a few years, we are exporting that type of aircraft and technologies that will build the expansion of our aeronautics industry, now largely dependent on only one supplier, which is the Embraer, “says CEO Akaer, César Augusto da Silva.
In late October, the vice president of Embraer Defense Market, Orlando José Ferreira Neto said that the value, in terms of technology transfer, “supply the Swedish company Saab is going to ensure that Brazil knowledge and technology aggregation within the premise ‘on the job doing’, ie learning by doing.
According to the executive, the Gripen is the only one that offers opportunity for Brazil to begin developing a game from scratch. “We are not interested in producing pieces. We seek the field of knowledge that we do not have and that will be useful in the development of future aircraft.” The capacity of the domestic industry, according to Ferreira Neto, it is essential to ensure the country’s autonomy in the future to make changes in aircraft that FAB will acquire and build a new fighter.
President Atech, one of the defense sector, as strategic by the Brazilian government, Tarcisio Takashi Muta said, as has happened with the air traffic system in the country, the choice of new fighters should prioritize the appearance of field of aircraft systems to be able to make modifications that FAB deems necessary. Atech participated in the process of absorption of technology air traffic control, which allowed Brazil to reach autonomy in the management of its airspace.
I did not quite understand the reference to the tobacco industry…:confused:
Perhaps an issue with the Google translator?
LokeBrazil is expected to make an announcement about its initial 36-aircraft FX-2 fighter deal around late November, following an evaluation involving the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen NG.
Industry sources say a platform selection should be confirmed by Brazil’s National Defence Council – chaired by president Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva – following the delivery of a 26,000-page report compiled by the nation’s air force and overseen by service chief Lt Brig Juniti Saito.
With a decision close at hand, Saab has mounted a final push to promote its Gripen NG, which it claims is the preferred candidate of both the Brazilian air force and Embraer, which will partner the selected company for local production of the chosen aircraft.
The Swedish company’s efforts have also gained late support from the UK government, which has thrown its weight firmly behind the Gripen following the selection of Selex Sensors and Airborne Systems’ Vixen 1000E/ES05 Raven active electronically scanned array radar for the NG model.
The UK Trade & Investment body says British content in the Gripen NG currently stands at 20% by value, primarily thanks to the radar selection, and that the possible integration of additional equipment could increase this to around 25%.
The outcome of the FX-2 contest appeared to have already been determined on 7 September, when da Silva and his French counterpart Nicolas Sarkozy held a joint press conference in which the Rafale was named as the preferred candidate.
However, the Brazilian defence ministry swiftly distanced itself from the claim, and invited a second round of best and final offers from all three bidding companies.
One industry source says Saab is fearful that political motives could see the Rafale win in Brazil, with a selection to further strengthen the nation’s strategic relationship with France.
Da Silva’s government has already inked deals worth around $12 billion to acquire French-supplied equipment including Eurocopter EC725 helicopters and submarines.
Saab is promoting the Gripen NG’s promised lower acquisition and operating costs over its twin-engine rivals, and has made significant pledges on industrial and technical partnership deals.
“Our sole intention is to share our technology,” says a company official, who adds: “we can make a material difference to their industry.”
Sweden’s final offer includes an offset package worth 175% of the FX-2 contract’s value, with this to include joint development activities on the Gripen NG. Saab’s intention is to enable first production examples to roll off production lines in Brazil and Sweden simultaneously during 2014.
Its offer would also allow Embraer to lead future export campaigns in Latin America. Saab has already identified potential sales opportunities with Argentina, Colombia, Ecuador, Mexico and Peru.
Additional benefit to Brazilian industry could come via a Saab proposal to pitch Embraer’s EMB-314 Super Tucano turboprop trainer and developmental KC-390 tanker/transport to the Swedish air force. Stockholm needs to acquire replacements for its aged Saab 105s and Lockheed Martin C-130s within around the next decade, it notes.
LokeI’d like to see it beat an F-15K 😉 Or carry a 5000lb GBU-28 like the K can.
OK, The F-15K would be a tough opponent. But I think you’re wrong if you believe finding and killing the NG will be a walk in the park even for the 15K… What is the RCS of that bird? It’s no Silent Eagle…! And how good is the IR suppression? NG with Meteor and IRIS-T should not be under-estimated by any 4.5 gen fighter… Simulations show it performs outperformed SU-35 6:1 (but that was in multirole config; in a a2a config it may have performed even better)
I don’t know how much it can carry; The pylons have been strengthened quite a lot and it can carry at least 4000 lb munitions… I think 4,500 or 5000 may be the max on the two heavy pylons.
LokeWhich really goes to show that the NG isn’t as revolutionary as some would have us believe. It’s to the Gripen what the F-15K is to the Eagle. Better avionics, more powerful engine, but at it’s heart it’s still got most of the same limitations of it’s parent aircraft.
What, don’t you believe that the NG is a true 5.5 gen a/c!!???
It will be a fantastic 4.5 gen fighter jet, but it will not be a VLO plane. And it will not have the EO-DAS system.
It will have: 1000-element AESA, dramatic increase in range, 20% increase in thrust, supercruise in a2a config, reduced RCS, reduced IR signature, improved MMI, MAWS, a very good IRST, increased payload, more pylons, satellite comms, and one thing that has not been discussed much; some very interesting EW capabilities… but that’s rather hush-hush. At the same time it will keep it’s fantastic low-drag and highly manouvrable airframe, with a minimum of weight added
I think this is pretty good. But is it a “5. gen plane”? I would say No. However I think that it can hold it’s own against most 4.5 gen jets out there, and do pretty well in a2g missions. Can it carry as much as the Rafale on long-range missions? Perhaps not, but by sending 4 NG instead of 2 Rafale and spreading the a2g munitions on more a/c that can actually also be addressed.
It will beat any teen and compare well to Rafale, Typhoon and SH.
LokeEODAS is only one of four on-board sensors used to develop situational awareness (APG-81, EOTS, ASQ-239 and EODAS). The data from all sensors within the flight is shared per the mission plan. For example, a flight of 4 F-35s in a mutually supporting formation (many miles separation between each airplane), has 4 radars, 4 EOTSs, 4 ESM suites and 4 EODAS suites to provide a picture of the battlespace over a front that covers a couple hundred miles.
The flight’s sensor data is shared in near-real time via MADL and is automatically analyzed, correlated and triangulated to provide position, velocity vector, identity and state of all potential targets within the field of view of the flight’s sensors. If the flight is having difficulty identifying or precisely location a target (e.g. intermittent contact), the flight’s mission systems group functionality will assign sensors within the flight (possibly from a couple different airplanes) to collect target data to resolve the identity/position/state issue. And this doesn’t include off-board NCW sensor data which can also be added to the data mix.
Isn’t there a risk with the radar that it can reduce the stealth effect? OK I am aware of the LPI mode, but that reduces also range quite a lot AFAIK.
So in some cases perhaps one would consider to use one a/c as a “mini-AWACs”, and the other three flying silent, relying on the radar input from the one transmitting a/c and combine that with their own IR and other passive sensors? In such a case the swashplate may be very useful.
LokeThe argument that the RCS of the fixed AESA is much lower may not be too relevant (even if true); consider that Gripen NG (like the Typhoon) is not a VLO platform.
So having the advantage of both a larger scan volume and a longer range due to an optimal positioning of the AESA far outweighs a theoretical advantage of having a slightly smaller RCA of the radar.
Also note that the RCS will be smaller than the current antenna:
The AESA radar has qualities that makes the
aircraft more difficult to detect by an enemy and
thereby increases the aircrafts survivability. These
qualities include lower radar cross section, ability
to operate with reduced output power levels
and side-lobe levels, and the agile beam used for
random search and track patterns.
LokeTop speed in relevant combat configurations, acceleration, maneuvrability, combat radius, …:p
I can’t see it outclasses the NG in any of those categories… Note I did not state that the NG will outclass the F-35 either (although in some categories and some relevant configs it probably will) 😀
If the NG thing is not operational (hence its specifications are not established), how could be used in any meaningfull simulation/comparison ?
So after finishing 1-2% of the test program (at the time those graphs were made) the F-35 was operational, and an meaningful comparison with other operational fighters could be made? :p
LokeThe Gripen NG (if ever fielded) would still be outclassed by the F 35 if the Swedish little thing will be in “real” combat configuration, not clean … Also, don’t be so sure that excersences imposed by the inverted landing gear (the trade of for ~ 0.8 t of fuel) and the extra weight (I’m very unsure if the weitgh increrase will be as they said) will be compensated by the extra thrust of the F 414.
F-35 will outclass the NG, but in what way?
It’s interesting they did not include the NG but used the older Gripen C in those charts…
LokeAirplanes go to battle in groups, never singly. With NCW sensor sharing, there is no reason for rotating arrays. If there was a need, F-22 would have implemented the side arrays to increase FOV.
So the F-35 EO-DAS system is over-hyped?
LokeBad news for you; the F 35 will outclass at least the Rafale and the Gripen, even if those ones will drop EFTs. The EF OTOH, might still have an edge (but only without EFTs)
Look at the graphs (green is without EFTs) : http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&plckPostId=Blog:27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post:a42185b9-b38e-407c-b03e-29f5cd97a5b5
Enjoy :diablo::D:p
Best of all, though, the Gripen variant used in the comparison is none other than the JAS 39C, with from the perfomance point of view is identical to the A-model that has been in service for 12 years – in fact, almost 20 years older in design than the JSF. The Next Generation version that Saab is pitching today has a lot more thrust and more internal fuel.
We know Lockheed Martin has access to all the same Saab material on the Gripen NG that we do, if only because a reporter from LockMart’s Code One magazine attended all of Saab’s briefings at Farnborough. (It raised some eyebrows in Saab PR – and so far none of that reporter’s work has been published.) So why not compare the JSF against the jet that it’s actually competing with?
:diablo:
LokeOh God, I think I am going to barf…. sour taste in my mouth…. here is comes…
I agree with Dare2. 😉
Damn, that tasted bad.
:confused:
LokeIt’s great that they finally integrated the AESA, catching up with Rafale :).
Some nice pictures:
http://www.deagel.com/library/Vixen-1000ES-AESA-radar_m02009062800005.aspx
LokeGripen NG Demo returns to the skies
http://www.gripen.com/en/MediaRelations/News/2009/gripen_ng_demo_returns_to_the_skies.htm
Gripen NG Demonstrator started flight testing again on October 27 following a modification which includes the installation of an AESA radar.
11/5/2009
The Gripen NG Demonstrator has been modified with a number of tactical systems: AESA radar, a new satellite communication system, an electro-optical missile warning system as well as activation of the increased internal fuel.
“A lot of new features have been implemented since we flew for the first time last year, but it takes an expert to see any external changes to the aircraft. Most clearly visible are the sensors for the missile warning system and antenna for the satellite communication system,” says Mattias Bergström, project manager for the Gripen NG Demonstrator.
New tactical system
AESA radar, Active Electronically Scanned Array, is among the enhanced Gripen’s capabilities. In simple terms, it refers to a radar that is built up of many small antenna elements into a large antenna. Each individual element can be controlled, facilitating many functions. Previously, the Gripen radar was a mechanically controlled antenna that illuminates one area at a time. An AESA radar can quickly scan larger areas, monitor more targets simultaneously and allow the pilot to operate with more flexibility.“The new satellite communication system that we have introduced means you can communicate voice and text via satellite technology,” explains Mattias Bergström.
Electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System
The sensors of the electro-optical Missile Approach Warning System (MAW) can be seen on the aircraft at the wing root and by the air brake. The system will protect among other things against Man Portable Air Defence Systems (MANPADS).The flights will now continue and the flight envelope will be opened once again, while all the new tactical systems will be tested.
LokeLOL, it’s not that I’m not happy.
But, is this SC with 98kN, or with some specifically enhanced engine, because I saw numbers as high as 11kN for NG’s F414 engine, so I’m not sure which is it.
Anyway, I think EJ200 has more potential and Gripen may benefit more from it in the future…
The Gripen Demo has demonstrated SC already, using the existing F414, without enhancements.
http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1010&Itemid=350
This is old; it has done supercruise also in later test flights, and with missiles and drop tanks AFAIK.
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