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Loke

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  • in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2131734
    Loke
    Participant

    Brilliant. Pay $10million more, get a legacy 4th gen aircraft with worse….. everything really.

    No, not worse everything… In some ways an F-35 deal would have been worse. Would the US allow an Indian F-35 carry Indian Nukes? Would the US agree to the same level of ToT as France? Etc.

    Also to call Rafale a “legacy 4th gen aircraft” is not very accurate. It is far above and beyond the teens, which are very much the archetypal “legacy 4th gen aircraft”. That’s why I prefer to refer to Rafale as a 4.5 gen aircraft. It is not in the same league as the F-35 however the difference between Rafale and e.g. the F-16 is so significant that it fully deserves recognition for this. Rafale will also be above and beyond Typhoon and SH until those move closer to a proper “4.5” gen configuration with AESA, improved sensor fusion, improved EWS for Typhoon; and improved EWS, improved sensor fusion for the SH*.

    IMHO currently there is only one 4.5 gen a/c, and that’s the Rafale! Gripen E/F seems to tick all the boxes and become a fully fledged 4.5 gen fighter, it will be interesting to see if also the TYphoon will meet Lokes strict requirements with future updates…

    *OK the SH guys got the Growler, more than one way to skin a cat.

    in reply to: SAAB Gripen and Gripen NG thread #4 #2131879
    Loke
    Participant

    Somebody asked in a PM about some of the capabilities of the Gripen E; since others may have the same question I decided to re-post some older articles:

    The Raven ES-05 active, electronically scanned array radar (AESA), developed by the company’s Edinburgh unit, will be the first production AESA to be mounted on a “repositioner,” a rotating mount that gives the radar a ±100-deg. field of view around the nose. The Skyward-G infrared search and track (IRST) system (from Nebbiano, Italy) is based on experience with the Eurofighter Typhoon’s Pirate IRST and Selex-developed land- and sea-based IRSTs. The fighter also has a new identification friend-or-foe (IFF) system with three electronically steerable antenna arrays, which matches the radar’s range and field of view.

    The three main sensors will cue one another automatically to display to pilots a fused picture of airspace around the fighter; it will also be fused with the JAS’s new electronic-warfare system. Finally, sensor data can be shared between Gripens in a flight via data link.

    The IRST is capable of detecting low-RCS targets at distances compatible with a beyond-visual-range missile launch, Mason says. “We have seen them,” he responds when asked if Selex IRSTs have tracked low-RCS targets. “We are looking at very small delta-Ts [temperature differences between the target and the background]. Some infrared absorbent paints cause more friction than standard surfaces, and that causes kinetic heating that the IRST will pick up.” Skyward-G does not depend on a supersonic target—“skin heating at 300-400 knots is significant”—and detects heat radiating through the aircraft’s skin from the engine, as well as skin friction and the exhaust plume.

    The IRST uses a long-wave focal plane array sensor (a dual-band system, adding mid-wave capability, is a potential upgrade) with three fields of view. In its long-range search mode, the system is an IR telescope with a fast-moving scanning mirror (located in a transparent dome in front of the windshield) and “step-scans” through its search sector. It also has a single-target track mode, and in wide-field mode it provides a night-vision image on the head-up display. As a passive system, IRST does not have inherent range data, but it can perform “kinetic ranging”—the aircraft performs a weaving maneuver and the range is determined by the change in azimuth angle to the target—or the IRSTs on two aircraft can triangulate the target over the TAU-Link.

    IRST hardware—the optics, detector and processor—has been improved since the development of Pirate started, but (according to Mason and other industry sources) the most important change has been the development of algorithms, based on operational experience and the analysis of real-world imagery, that look at IR signatures in detail, including variations of color and brightness within the target, in order to filter out false alarms caused by everything from birds to barbecue grills.

    The IRST can give the radar a very accurate azimuth and elevation to the target, which allows it to focus its energy and increase the probability of achieving detection and track on a low-RCS target, Mason says. The AESA provides virtually instantaneous beam-steering within its ±70-deg. scan, but the repositioner is slower. One concept to be demonstrated will be the use of two Gripen radars and the TAU-Link to provide a wide-angle picture to both targets.

    The new IFF is designed to provide low-latency coverage over the radar’s entire field of view and to its maximum range, and is independent of the radar. That approach has been selected to furnish the best possible information on cooperating targets (such as friendlies and commercial traffic), allowing the IRST and radar to concentrate on potentially hostile aircraft.

    http://aviationweek.com/awin/gripen-sensors-claim-counter-stealth-performance

    As a passive sensor, it emits no signals and is therefore undetectable as it scans for targets. Once a target is acquired, the IRST can continue to track it whilst undetected, waiting until the last possible moment to switch to an active (but detectable) sensor such as the AESA radar. With ‘lock on after launch’ (LOAL) technology, the IRST can even be used to guide a missile toward the target without using any active sensors at all, letting the missile seeker conduct terminal guidance to the target.

    In addition to the on board EW and self-defence suite, the Gripen will also be the first aircraft to offer the new ‘BriteCloud’ off-board active decoy from Selex. BriteCloud is a self-contained Digital RF Memory (DRFM) jammer for * fighters, and was launched by Selex on 6 November 2013. Saab will offer BriteCloud as an electronic warfare option on all versions of Gripen.

    BriteCloud is specifically aimed at defeating modern tracking systems, both ground-based and air-based. Its DRFM technology is able to defeat even contemporary chaff discrimination techniques, effectively creating a convincing false target that allows a wide range of threat systems to be countered.

    http://saab.com/region/india/about-saab/stories/saab-india-stories/2014/gripen-es-electronic-wizardry-is-the-future/

    Saab introduces “Wide Spectrum Combat” (WISCOM) to handle future (VLO) threats:

    * Silent swarm ingress
    * IRST and passive AESA
    * Random AESA emissions
    * Beamed datalinks
    * Long range Meteor missiles

    http://documents.mx/documents/the-gripen-philosophy-international-fighter-conference.html

    AFAIK Gripen is the first 4.5 gen fighter with “beamed” (directonal) datalinks(?)

    in reply to: Russia movies S-400 Unity close to Finnish border ! #2133652
    Loke
    Participant
    in reply to: General Discussion #260428
    Loke
    Participant

    I have jst made some observations that strongly makes the case that we are indeed living in a simulation!!!

    This happened when I was studying some new a

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2136958
    Loke
    Participant

    There is no GaN radar in the pipeline.

    Starfish, any comments to the above? Any recent sources supporting your claim that you are right and Vnomad is wrong?

    in reply to: Indian Air Force Thread 20 #2137457
    Loke
    Participant

    National Interest:
    Why India Wants France’s Dassault Rafale Fighter Jet: They Can Carry Nuclear Weapons

    I suggested this several times in the past, but the idea was always shot down by the experts…

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2137464
    Loke
    Participant

    Well the 2015 version is pretty much unchanged bar a few A2G upgrades. I would expect it to win on Strike and Recce due to stores configuration/landing gear issues but the other scores will likely change against a Captor-E and DASS P4E equipped Typhoon.

    I was thinking more along the lines of:

    * in the “2015” Swiss eval the Rafale consistently outperformed the Swiss Hornets (which are no slouches) in all categories
    * in the Danish eval the Typhoon (and SH) did not consistently outperform the Danish F-16.

    Now, if we assume that the F-16 and Hornets have roughly the same technology level, one may start to wonder if not an a/c that is consistently outperforming one, would not also consistently outperform also the other…

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2137586
    Loke
    Participant

    Looking at the last eval, the Typhoon lost mainly on EW, Detection, Acquistion and SA and often not by a huge margin. Well every one of those things is being greatly improved, so I don’t think it can be rationally ruled as being worse at this stage. Nobody has such knowledge of the future.

    Well, looking at the overall scores in each category, we see that for the “2015” version the Rafale consistently outperformed the Hornet, which was used as a benchmark (or it performed significantly above the threshold which was set at 6.) Here are the numbers, and the percent improvement from the 6-point threshold:

    Aircraft Rafale Typhoon R, %diff T, %diff
    Air Pol. 6,98 6,48 16 8
    D.C.A. 7,28 6,49 21 8
    Escort 7,41 6,54 24 9
    Recce 7,63 5,43 27 -10
    Strike 7,63 5,76 27 -4

    A pity Rafale did not participate in the Danish competition — it would have been interesting to see if it would have been assessed as being consistently better than the Danish F-16.

    I suspect it could — in general I have a feeling that many tend to underestimate the “old” Hornets, and how capable the Hornets are compared to e.g. the F-16 block 50/52.

    Of course it could be that the Danes have assessed things in a completely different manner — OTOH the way the Rafale has consistently outperformed the Hornet in Switzerland makes one wonder…

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2137682
    Loke
    Participant

    It’ll out-do the Gripen E, Rafale, F-16V & J-10C.

    The SH will remain a peer.

    The F-22 & upgraded F-15E will remain superior. F-35 too is likely to be superior; similar sized aperture but driven by a larger more focused R&D effort (its higher T/R count being a good rough indicator). The J-16, PAK FA & J-20 are dark horses. Larger antennas. Comparable tech level is questionable.

    Are you talking about radar performance, or overall?

    If you are talking about radar performance I would be surprised if the older SH radar would “remain” a peer to a future Typhoon GaN radar; unless of course the SH is scheduled to get a significant radar upgrade in the near future.

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2137685
    Loke
    Participant

    Well the bad news is that Radar 2 won’t be for export, certainly not with the RF attack and cyberwarfare functions, so it’s likely irrelevant to the Swiss. Also not really sure how they can judge an aircraft standard that they can’t possibly have analysed yet. Maybe they just don’t want the cost of repeating the full eval. I’m not really to bothered about the Swiss though, I’m more interested in domestic capability and it’s only a very small order.

    Me? And not all the Rafale guys trying to deny that it has any weaknesses.:D

    Heh, I’m not massively sure the Rafale will ever fly in Indian or Swiss colours either.

    Do you have any recent sources for “radar 2”? Are you sure it will ever be implemented?

    I understand how you could not be bothered by the Swiss — in particular when they start doing things that don’t support your view of the superior Typhoon… — or is it only with Radar 2 that it will be superior?

    Both Rafale and Typhoon have their weaknesses, and I already said it is beneficial to have a larger radar, so I am not sure what you are referring to.

    Rafale most likely will fly in Indian colors — I agree it is an open question whether it will fly in Swiss colors, that was not the point, the point was that the Typhoon will not even enter into the race. If the upgraded Typhoon is so superior to the Rafale, isn’t it a bit strange that they keep the Rafale in but drops the Typhoon? In particular if all it takes to understand the superiority of Typhoon is to read a few articles about the future upgrades…. Seems strange if the Eurofighter marketing department did not bother to update the Swiss on the fantastic new capabilities of the Typhoon….

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2137743
    Loke
    Participant

    The EW is very impressive right now, we can only wait to see what the EF comes up with in 2021.

    Right, so by 2021 the EW will be even more impressive; it will have a huge GaN radar, and several other improvements.

    However the Swiss are not impressed:

    While no manufacturers have yet publicly declared their interest in a relaunched Swiss fighter procurement programme, the government has previously stated that the new process should include two of the three shortlisted candidates from the previous effort: the Gripen E and the Dassault Rafale (the Eurofighter Typhoon is no longer considered a “favourite”, according to national broadcater RTS).

    http://www.janes.com/article/58331/switzerland-adds-hornets-to-fighter-replacement-plans

    So in spite of all the improvements to the Typhoon, the Swiss are not interested in even evaluating it once more.

    To be honest, if there is one person here very much looking like a “fanboy” right now, that is Starfish.

    Or would you argue that it’s the Swiss air force that is full of Rafale and Gripen fanboys…? 🙂

    It will be interesting to see who will win the next round in Switzerland; the technical eval will no doubt be won by the F-35 (if it is invited), and Rafale will be pushed down to second, followed by the Gripen E, however when cost and ToT is included in the assessment, who knows? Will Dassault manage to reduce costs (due to exports between now and 2025) sufficiently to compete against the F-35? Or will the budget be so small that Gripen E will again be selected?

    The only thing we know for sure is that the super-duper-Typhoon will never fly in Swiss colors (or Indian colors for that matter..).

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2137881
    Loke
    Participant

    Fact of the matter is that there are so many variables that influence engagement capabilites, and radar range is far from being the only important one.

    This is more in line with my own thinking…

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2137985
    Loke
    Participant

    Nice try, but a Gripen C is at least as fast as a Rafale in a straight line (M2.0 vs M1.8) and since most launches would be subsonic it’s a moot point – the AMRAAM would out-range the MICA. But clearly this isn’t what’s being assessed.

    “kinematic performance” does not normally refer to the max speed….

    No, we ain’t speculating, it’s just that you’re wrong, otherwise we could claim the same for detection, and/or just dismiss the whole eval based on not really knowing exactly how things were measured.

    You are actually right, one should not just assume that “Detection” refers to the radar only; perhaps it is something more than that.

    Regarding “engagement”, why don’t you back up your definition of the word?

    Here is one definition, probably written by somebody who knows much more about this than either of us:

    Engagement

    Maneuvers by opposing aircraft attempting to achieve/prevent weapons firing positions.

    http://www.f-16.net/glossary-E.html

    Unless you can come up with something better than “you are wrong” I suggest we end this silly discussion right here.

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2138042
    Loke
    Participant

    Not by 2021. Right now the prediction for that in 2030-plus, by which Rafale will be irrelevant and it will likely left for Rafale NG.

    If you by “Rafale NG” means the “Rafale MLU”, then you may be right; the F-16A became also irrelevant however an MLU fixed that…

    We could see the same with the Rafale, there is plenty of room for growth in that airframe. It really depends on the funding levels, however with India and a few ME countries aboard it should be sufficient to do a proper MLU in the 2025-2030 time frame, and keep the Rafale relevant post 2030.

    in reply to: If you had to choose between Rafale or F-35 #2138044
    Loke
    Participant

    Except it doesn’t because Gripen C also has the AMRAAM and scores way below both aircraft. And UK only has C-5.

    Gripen C does have the AMRAAM however the kinematic performance is far away from Typhoon’s (and probably also rather inferior to Rafale’s)

    I think we are probably all speculating here… none of us knows for sure exactly what “engagement” means in this context.

Viewing 15 posts - 631 through 645 (of 3,001 total)