It depends on what is included.
The Korean DSCA does not include construction, weapons, long term support, etc.
I don’t think that’s included in the Norwegian figure either.
The 40 billion figure though should include everything.
This is a make or break moment for the F-35; if they lose the Korean contest, then all the partner nations will start bailing out and look at the Silent Hornet instead.
Completely wrong.
No partner nation will break out.
Instead Korea will buy the F-35.
Anyway what will it cost to operate 60 4.5 gen a/c over 30 years?
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2013/Korea_13-10.pdf
60 F-35A for $10.8 billion
http://www.dsca.mil/pressreleases/36-b/2013/Korea_13-11.pdf
Parts(Radar, sensors, etc) for 60 Silent Eagles for $2 billion. The airframe and engines are DCS(Direct Commercial Sales) and not covered.
I cannot imaging that 60 F-15 will cost less than 10 billion!? thus the Silent Eagle should cost at least 12.4 billion, and probably more.
Anyway the important difference with regards to cost will be in the operating costs — in the long run F-35 may win because if Korea is the only country operating the Silent Eagle most likely they would have to cover all costs of future MLU themselves.
Sigh.. why do people keep discussing in the News thread?
Norwegian numbers:
52 F-35 cost 10.5 billion USD (approx). I don’t know why the Koreans can get 8 a/c more and pay just 0.3 billion more, they are not even partners!
Total costs over 30 years (including the purchase of the 52 F-35) is estimated to approx 40 billion USD.
Does anybody have “comparable” numbers for other aircraft, like e.g. the Typhoon, Rafale, or SH?
I recall 10billion was mentioned for 126 MMRCA aircraft to India, but I think that must have been a rather optimistic assumption!?
As a matter of fact, your article is way wrong insofar as the RCS is crucial even in a “EM silent” environment.
If you have a high RCS, you are going to be a nice juicy blip on the screen of AWACS, ground and sea based radars.
For example a Mica can be fired by a Rafale with sea or awacs based guidance. The rafale won’t even have to fire it’s radar or slave it’s OSF to the target first.
Nic
It’s not “my” article, I merely linked to it.
The article is not “way wrong”, it merely did not make the point clearly. “EM silent” means that there are no active radars in the area; that would include AWACS, ground, and sea based radars.
If that’s not the case, the assumption is broken and RCS obviously plays an important role.
How modern air fights may happen:
In air combat, the basic problem is to find out where the enemy aircraft are. If you don’t know this you cannot launch your weapons. The same is true for the enemy, of course. Traditionally, fighter aircraft use their onboard radars for this. But future air combat is most likely to be much more silent than it is today. This means that fighter aircraft approaching each other will try to emit as little electromagnetic energy as possible, not using their radars in active mode.
Silent Gripens
Gripen NG is built for such future silent operations. When Gripen NG approaches an advanced adversary in the air, its powerful AESA radar and EW antennas are silent, listening. These two systems are very well adapted for position determination by only listening to enemy emissions. It is important to notice that in a totally silent scenario, where all aircraft avoid emitting with radar, RCS (Radar Cross Section) is meaningless.
It doesn’t matter if you have the best stealth features in the world if all radars in the scenario are turned off. And as soon as an enemy turns his radar on and starts emitting, Gripen NG pilots know where he is.
Other Parts of Spectrum
But as we said in the beginning, Gripen NG has a holistic approach to electromagnetic energy, listening not only for enemy radar emissions but also for a multitude ofother possible emissions in the electromagnetic spectrum. Gripen NG has a large number of antennas spread out around the entire airframe for this purpose, for example AESA, EW, IRST, data link and radio antennas. All of them are silent, listening on different frequencies. As soon as an enemy emits electromagnetic energy in any way, we try to find his position. And if the enemy is silent all the way in, there is still one emission he can’t stop – heat. So in the end we find his position with IRST.
Information Gathering and Information Sharing
Information gathering is done using electromagnetic energy in some form. However, information sharing is also done using electromagnetic energy. Both activities are carried out in the same arena. This means that the information sharing activities of one side can be used for information gathering by the other. As already mentioned, in Gripen NG we implement the Wide Spectrum Combat, trying to pick up all enemy signals in all possible parts of the electromagnetic spectrum.
Data Fusion
Gripen has technology to share information about enemy positions without giving its own position away. This in turn, makes it possible to utilize advanced data fusion, fusing together all the information about enemy positions that exists in the Gripen NG formation network. All pieces of information, coming from different Gripen NG fighters, and from different sensors onboard these fighters, are analyzed in the network nodes. A well spread-out Gripen NG formation also facilitates triangulation calculations of enemy positions with high accuracy. The result is a much more distinct and clear overall picture of the enemy positions and movements in the battle space.
The key is to avoid emissions, not just from radars, and at the same time passively listen for emissions from the opponent; any signals are shared with other assets and fused to determine where the opponent is.
Does the Su-35S have beamed datalinks? Does it have sensor fusion?
Does the Rafale have beamed datalinks? I believe it does have sensor fusion?
Report on Gripen’s mission in Libya.
From an international perspective the Swedish contribution was initially seen as politically useful, but there was skepticism regarding its like military significance. This skepticism was nevertheless quickly transformed into praise after the reconnaissance missions and photos provided by the Gripens and the Swedish analysts proved highly useful. A RUSI report on the international intervention in Libya concluded that the Swedish contribution has been seen in a very positive light within the international coalition. The political benefits stemming from receiving the support of a traditionally non-aligned nation were expected, but the substantial contribution in an initial defensive air combat role, and then, much more so in a tactical reconnaissance role favorably surprised the coalition.
The Gripen aircraft and the Swedish pilots and support staff proved outstanding in [the reconnaissance] role and outstripped other combat assets with the quality of its tactical ISR (intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance).
[…]
After takeoff the two-ship flew along a predefined route along special corridors.They passed Malta, and thereafter contacted an E-3 AWACS (U.S., NATO or French) on their way to their first air-to-air refueling (AAR). The AWACS were responsible for informing the crew of threats and friendly air traffic, coordinating refueling, and also forwarding in-flight reports and any new targets (dynamic targets) to the crew. The AAR took place in a predefined area beyond the Libyan coastline. Near the end of OUP it was possible to refuel over Libya itself, and this was required to provide imagery of targets further south in Libya. The Gripens initially used the Swedish C-130 Hercules for refueling, but later also refueled from U.S., French, and Canadian tankers as well. After refueling, the aircraft flew to their reconnaissance targets, which were overflown several times to get imagery from different sensors and angles. A lot of consideration was required when collecting imagery, such as if vertical or oblique angles were to be used, and the direction of the target in relation to the sun and clouds. On some missions several AARs were needed to be able to cover all of the recce targets.
The missions were flown at altitudes over 20,000 feet to stay well above groundbased air defense threats, such as anti-aircraft guns, small-arms fire, and manportable IRguided missiles. This behavior required air superiority, something that was obviously achieved early in the conflict. Even so, the Swedish Gripens detected a number of more advanced missile systems with their electronic warfare suites and the radar warning receivers. Normally a flight covered ten targets during a mission. Limitations on the number of targets included aircraft endurance and available memory capacity. The most important limitation, however, was the time it took to analyze the imagery back at Sigonella Air Base on Sicily. After the Gripens had collected imagery from all the tasked targets they often remained in the air waiting for so called “dynamic targeting” – additional, time-sensitive reconnaissance targets.
http://media.wix.com/ugd//012b60_f1ddfbd759804fe6809fb4f09f536405.pdf
From defense-aerospace.com…
Has this been confirmed by other sources?
Su-35 is an amazing machine: http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/products/su-35/index.wbp
So is Rafale!
It will depend on the tactics of each team, the level of training, and the supporting assets (AWACS, tankers, etc).
Also it will depend on what missiles they got. Rafale with Meteor would be a dangerous opponent for anybody!
Just to give another insight of SPECTRA performance, there was the answer of captain Romain on his blog. For the record Captain Romain wrote a book of rafale engagement in afghanistan.
http://blog.francetv.fr/capitaine-romain/index.php/2010/11/11/228808-la-question-de-corentin
I am not saying like anyone here (which is why it is more a deaf discussion) that relying on RWR is the panacea and ideal in all situations but it seems nevertheless according to the discussions I had and other testimonies such as this one that SPECTRA is quite effective and at longer range that some would expect. Probably your PK will be lower than with a radar at long range but it is considered as operationally relevant by french forces
Rafale is not the only a/c with such capabilities:
A basic use of the datalink is “silent attack.” An adversary may be aware that he is being tracked by a fighter radar that is outside missile range. He may not be aware that another, closer fighter is receiving that tracking data and is preparing for a missile launch without using its own radar. After launch, the shooter can break and escape, while the other fighter continues to pass tracking data to the missile. In tests, Gripen pilots have learned that this makes it possible to delay using the AMRAAM’s active seeker until it is too late for the target to respond.
But the use of the link goes beyond this, towards what the Swedish Air Force calls “samverkan,” or close-cooperation. One example is the use of the Ericsson PS-05/A radar with TIDLS. An Ericsson paper compares its application, with identical sensors and precise knowledge of the location of both platforms, to human twins: “Communication is possible without explaining everything.”
“Radar-samverkan,” the Ericsson paper suggests, equips the formation with a super-radar of extraordinary capabilities. The PS-05/A can operate in passive mode, as a sensitive receiver with high directional accuracy (due to its large antenna). Two PS-05/As can exchange information by datalink and locate the target by triangulation. The target’s signals will often identify it as well.
The datalink results in better tracking. Usually, three plots (echoes) are needed to track a target in track-while-scan mode. The datalink allows the radars to share plots, not just tracks, so even if none of the aircraft in a formation gets enough plots on its own to track the target, they may do so collectively.
Anyway, sensor fusion is important, and RWR is not the only sensors; I am sure that just like Gripen, Rafale will use it’s antenna to listen to emissions from e.g. the Su-35.
These days, sensitivity and quality of sensors, image processing, sensor fusion, and networking are more important than ever.
Most likely the SU-35 will operate it’s radar in LPI mode.
It can be seen from Table 2 that the PILOT radar with 1W output power can
detect its 100m² RCS target at 28km, whereas its transmissions can only be intercepted at 0.25km with -40dBmi sensitivity. It can also be seen that ES receiver interception range is coming closer to radar’s maximum detection range with -80dBmi sensitivity. ES receiver interception range can be calculated as 250km, too much above radar’s maximum detection range, if the sensitivity of ES receiver were -100dBmi.Table 2 also shows that the effectiveness of LPI radar performance is strongly influenced by the radar cross-section of the target to be detected. If the PILOT radar were required to detect a smaller target, for example an aircraft, with an RCS of 1m², transmitted power of 1W would give 8.8km radar detection range and the ES receiver with -80dBmi sensitivity would intercept PILOT radar much before it detects aircraft.
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a456960.pdf
Since Western fighters (including Rafale) still has a lead in several areas when it comes to electronics, signal processing, sensor fusion, Rafale has several advantages over the SU-35. If those advantages are used in a tactically useful manner, Rafale would in most cases come out on top.
China’s acquisition of the Su-35 will also question the wisdom of India’s plan to buy the French Rafale, the expert said.
“The sale of Su-35s to China will shoot down the value of the Rafale for India,” Mr. Makienko, who is deputy head of Russia’s top defence think tank, Centre for Analysis of Strategies and Technologies, told The Hindu.
“The Rafale will stand no chance against China’s Su-35,” the expert explained. “The Su-35’s Irbis radar has more than twice the detection range of the Rafale’s Thales RBE2, and will lock onto its target well before the Russian plane becomes visible for a retaliatory strike. The 117S engines of the Su-35 are also far more powerful than the Rafale’s Snecma M88.”
http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/the-dragon-gets-a-bear-hug/article4485335.ece
Well…
Seems they are:
The European Aeronautic Space and Defence (EADS), which manufactures the Eurofighter Typhoon, medium multi-role combat aircraft, is still hopeful of getting the $18 billion contract to supply 126 MMRCA to the Indian Air Force. It lost out to the French Rafale, manufactured by Dassault Aviation on 31 January 2012, but pins its hope on the fact that the rejection never came in writing.
A source in EADS told this newspaper, “In November 2011, when the shortlisting took place, four out of the six contenders were given in writing that they were out of the race. When the name of the L-1 (lowest bidder 1) was declared in January 2012, Eurofighter Typhoon, which was L-2, was not given anything in writing. This is why Typhoon believes that the deal is not yet closed.” The source said that Eurofighter Typhoon is gearing up to address the issues on which it faced rejection.
David Cameron’s recent India visit raised Typhoon’s hopes after the British Prime Minister discussed the deal with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh. UK is one of the four partnering countries in the Typhoon programme, along with Germany, Spain and Italy.
While negotiations are on between the Ministry of Defence (MoD) and Dassault Aviation, it must be noted that the French aircraft company’s commercial bid comes to an end on 31 March 2013. If a decision is not made by this time, the old bid will not be considered and a fresh revised bid will be called for.
http://www.sunday-guardian.com/news/typhoon-hopes-up-after-delay-in-rafale-deal
Note the highlighted text — is this confirmed from other sources?
India is currently in exclusive talks with France’s Dassault for those jets. The defence ministry says it is too early to say if there are any problems with that deal, and expects to finalise negotiations this year. If the deal were for any reason scrapped, a new tender would likely have to be issued.
Number two contender, the Eurofighter consortium, could possibly enter exclusive talks with India if Dassault fails to reach a price agreement with the government.
http://in.reuters.com/article/2013/03/07/india-election-political-risks-idINDEE92604920130307
After more than one year of negotiations “it is too early to say if there are any problems”!? That sounds rather strange.
Perhaps the MMRCA is not a done deal after all!???
Gripen still in India!?
Is Saab still trying to sell Gripen in India?
http://www.saabgroup.com/en/Air/Gripen-Fighter-System/Gripen-for-India/
Also:
We will closely monitor the future process. To support the continued participation of the MMRCA, we are willing to provide additional information to the Indian Air Force and the Ministry of Defence to address any concerns that may have resulted in this decision and to lay out the comprehensive package of benefits that comes from the Gripen platform.
Gripen is a world-class product that stands up very well in the extremely tough competitive international market We are offering India a world-class next generation fighter aircraft to a very competitive price and an extensive technology transfer programme.
We believe that the Gripen NG meets the requirements of the Indian Air Force and India in creation of a strong, futuristic air force. Compared to its competitors, Gripen NG provides a far superior price and life cycle cost, which will enable India to acquire the requisite number of aircraft which makes it unmatched.
The Gripen is a true independent choice and would give India huge ability to create an air force that would not be tied down to any single supplier or country.
Is Eurofighter still doing the same?
Defence and security company Saab has, within the framework of the agreement with the Swedish Defence Materiel Administration (FMV) that was made public on February 15 2013, received a development order amounting to SEK 10.7 billion for operations during 2015-2023.
The agreement with FMV on Gripen E, that was made public on February 15 2013, includes the development and modification of Gripen E for Sweden during the period 2013-2026 as well as a possible order for new production of Gripen E for Switzerland.
FMV has today placed an order for the remaining development work for Gripen E corresponding to SEK 10.7 billion. The order includes definition and development work as well as adaptation of test and trial equipment, simulators and rigs.
The total value of possible orders under the agreement amounts to a total of SEK 47.2 billion, of which SEK 13.2 billion now has been received, and these will be booked when each order is received. Remaining orders within the agreement are expected in 2013-2014.
“This is a strategically important order and of great significance for both Saab as a company and Gripen as a system. Gripen is one of the most modern fighter aircraft systems and through this development order, and the expected modification order from Sweden, we have a strong competitive advantage when we now increase our efforts on the export market,” says Saab’s President and CEO Håkan Buskhe.
The Gripen system is a unique fighter aircraft system with high defence capability. The system is today used by five countries and also by the British air force for training purposes.
”Now we have orders from FMV on the complete development of Gripen E, which makes it possible for us, FMV and our partners to work very cost effectively. In our civil programmes, the Neuron project and the Gripen Demo program we have systematically and step by step developed and tested a methodology the for development of aircraft systems, making us uniquely effective in our industry on a global level,” says Lennart Sindahl, Head of Saab’s business area Aeronautics.
As made public on February 15 2013, the other parts of the agreement with FMV includes: possible orders of modification of 60 Gripen C to Gripen E to Sweden with first deliveries to Sweden in 2018; mission-specific equipment and support and maintenance for Gripen E to Sweden with initial deliveries in 2018, and; delivery of 22 brand new Gripen E, and related equipment to Switzerland, if the country decides to acquire Gripen E.
The agreement includes rights for FMV – conditional to certain pre-requisites – to fully or partly make cancellations. If so, Saab has the right to compensation for costs incurred and costs for discontinuation. The agreement also includes sections regulating the conditions should Switzerland decide not to acquire Gripen E.
Wrong and wrong again. But then I guess the vassal mentality comes easily to Norway.
The experiences that Norway and Denmark made during WW2 demonstrated otherwise. Before being invaded by Germany both Norway and Denmark were neutral and did their best to stay out of it.
After WW2 Europe entered the “cold war”, and both Norway and Denmark opted for NATO, as a direct concequence of what happened to us during WW2.
Had Norway not been invaded in WW2 perhaps we would have chosen otherwise after the war…