LokeYou are correct, it was not a direct answer to the Norwegian MoDs assessment (that did say that the Gripen was worse off vs. Flankers than the F-35, regardless of how ludicrous this may sound to some), albeit related.
I am still interested in any sources to the claim that Gripen would not handle Flankers, according to Norwegian MoDs.
In the meantime I found a source that refers to PAK FA (but not Flankers).
http://www.vg.no/nyheter/innenriks/artikkel.php?artid=534207
It basically says that PAK FA “shut down” Gripen NG according to the Norwegian simulations; the NG was not able to handle the PAK FA.
Diesen also says that in the “short term” (5 – 10 years) Gripen is still a very good plane, but Norwegian MoD must look 20-30 years into the future, and then it was no doubt about what fighter they needed.
For some reason I thought I had seen 10-15 years somewhere, but perhaps my memory is failing me? :confused:
Anyway, apart from that, this source basically confirms what I said above; they did not say Gripen failed to meet the Flankers, but they did say it failed when meeting the PAK FA.
LokeYou are correct, it was not a direct answer to the Norwegian MoDs assessment (that did say that the Gripen was worse off vs. Flankers than the F-35, regardless of how ludicrous this may sound to some), albeit related.
Do you have a source for that?
The only claims I recall seeing was that the Norwegian MoD believed the NG would not be adequate when facing the PAK FA.
In addition they said that Gripen NG would meet their requirements for 10-15 years. This statement to me indicates that they actually believed that NG would be adequate against not just the Su-30 but also the Su-35, both of which are available to Russia the next 10-15 years. After that however, the PAK FA should enter service.
I would be interesting in your sources since they contradict the sources I read at that time!
LokeAlso keep in mind that SAAB decided to publish those figures after the Norwegian MoD loudly announced the Gripen to be inadequate vs. Sukhoi Su-30MKx/35S etc.
No, the Norwegian MoD never announced such a thing. They did not even hint at it. On the contrary, they hinted that Gripen NG would be adequate against SU30/Su35…
There is much more to Gripen and Gripen NG than meets the eye. It’s those classified features in combination with certain tactics that makes Sweden confident in the capabilities of NG vs. Su-35. Of course none of this was shown in the silly movie.
How do they know that the classified features of SU-35 don’t “trumph” the classified features of Gripen NG? It comes down to military/industrial intelligence. The Swedes has some good intelligence; sufficiently good that it bought them a seat with the Americans. By trading intelligence with other Western services they have a pretty good understanding of what level of capabilities those Russian a/c got.
LokeIf there’s going to be an RFI on the street, you don’t announce in advance that you won’t play.
Whether that means you stay in the fight until the last dog dies is another matter. If you consider that the deal is rigged (as EF did in Norway in 2008) you may bail to avoid being publicly repudiated.
Also, the attractiveness of the Super H as a fall-back to the F-35 is strongly dependent on the US. If the official plan stays in place, to retire the SH starting in 2030, it loses a lot of appeal as a 2018-ish IOC.
So if I was Dassault, I would take the view that if the F-35 becomes economically or politically toxic in Canada, but the US continues to bore on with the JSF, and if India stays on course and I win in Brazil, I have a chance.
Looking at how the US economy is still struggling, and looking at the delays of the F-35, I doubt that the SH will be retired that early.
Anyway, F-35 will be chosen in Canada, so all the rest does not really matter…
LokeWere those Su-35s? They’re day dreaming. 🙂
Not at all, sims show that NG with IRIS-T and Meteor is superior:
Saab’s simulations saw the MBDA Meteor- and Diehl BGT Defence IRIS-T missile-equipped Gripen NG defeat the Su-35 at a ratio of 1:6 to 1.
This should not come as a surprise; the Gripen family was designed to beat the flanker family. And just like Su-35 is a major upgrade of todays Flanker, so is Gripen NG a major upgrade of the Gripen C.
LokeI case you haven’t seen it already:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oKlQyPOiRuE
(released today)
LokeDassault is simply answering a RfI from the Canadian’s gouvernment, not trying to force or do anything special. EADS, Boeing and SAAB also received one and will likely provide an answer too.
I was referring to the article, and in particular the headline. The chances of Rafale winning in Canada are very very low. Anyway this is just an RFI, I would not be surprised with both Dassault and Eurofighter “pulls out” and do not spend the time and money to respond to an RFP (if such a thing is ever issued).
You may be right, but the current scandal around the real cost of the JSF might make buying that plane a political suicide, in which case, politicians are likely to avoid that plane if it means losing the election for them.
The “scandal” will not cost Canada that much money, assuming that they can delay their purchase until the price starts to fall. The US will cover most of the extra costs, not the external partners. The big scandal in Canada was the way this whole thing was treated by the government.
LokeEither he was misinterpreted by the journalist, or Dassault is thinking to participate in Canada to make a lot of noise and use the opportunity to harass the Americans.
The probability of Canaday going for F-35 is very high (90% IMHO).
If they don’t go for F-35, they will go for the SH instead.
No way they will buy Rafale. Their main issue with the F-35 is the cost. Why on earth would they buy a non-US fighter that is horribly expensive? It does not makes sense politically and it does not makes sense economically.
LokeBasing agreements invite conflicts in the same way fire extinguishers in the home invite house fires. :rolleyes:
Careful with that analogy — my 4-year-old saw the fire extinguisher in the house the other day and asked what purpose it served.
I explained it to him.
He thought about it for a long time. Then he asked if we could use it. I said no, we would only use it in case of a fire. He did some further deep thinking but did not ask any further questions.
I then decided to make sure that all matches in the house were well out of reach from him!!!
sorry for OT.
LokeResults from Red Flag Alaska 2012 said otherwise :
“Red” was simulated by six F-16 aircraft from 18 Squadron aggressors. They imitated the Su-30MKK planes armed with missiles R-27 (AA-AA-10C and 10D), and electronic warfare pods. We fought with them 35 minutes. We managed to defend the border. We shoot down “Red” nine out of ten aircraft sent into battle. As the “Blues” have lost two EF-2000 and two F-16.
http://lotniczapolska.pl/Europejska-…a-Alasce,25065
So not totally out-gunned – see results 9:4 ( Blue vs Red forces )
How is this relevant to F-22?
Presumably if Blue had had F-22 instead of Typhoon and F-16 they would not have lost those 4 a/c?
LokeNorway pushes for further assurances over JSM integration on F-35
Norway’s deputy defence minister Eirik Øwre Thorshaug is to meet with officials from Lockheed Martin and the F-35s Joint Program Office in the first week of December, as Oslo seeks further assurances over the integration of the Kongsberg Joint Strike Missile (JSM) on to the stealthy fighter.
Oslo has committed to acquiring an initial four examples of the F-35A conventional take-off and landing variant of the Joint Strike Fighter, but securing the ability to field Kongsberg’s “fifth-generation” munition was a pre-requisite for its order. It could eventually acquire up to 52 aircraft to replace its fleet of Lockheed F-16s, in a procurement exercise worth a total of NKr61.2 billion ($10.8 billion).
Although Norway has received what Thorshaug describes as “good signals on the political level” in its efforts to ensure integration, largely in the form of a letter from US Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, he acknowledges the process “is not finished”.
“We are pushing and leaning forward in that respect, towards both [Lockheed] and the US government,” he said during an event in Kongsberg to mark the unveiling of the first JSM fuselage. “We will not rest or hesitate in bringing this issue to our partners or important US ally.
“For the Norwegian government it is crucial to get the JSM integrated, mainly because we need to be operationally capable in relation to our national defence needs.”
The Royal Norwegian Air Force views the JSM, with its range of about 150nm (277km) and ability to target and attack heavily armed naval vessels, as a key asset for defending its lengthy coastline.
LokeI deep down think that the danish are skittish on the F-35 and might go for a cheaper alternative. I also think that we will get a nice dose of heads rolling and Hand ringing, the minute their cute little Girffin/F-16 has to intercept
a Russian T-50, or the next gen Russian bomber. its likely they wont know its there until it pulls up along side them.
Sigh.
How incredibly dense are you?
A handful of Gripen cannot protect tiny Denmark against Russia, but neither can a handful of F-35.
What can protect Denmark against Russia is NATO.
Consider, Denmark don’t even have subs! How can their non-existent submarines protect the Danish costline!?
Denmark actually don’t need fighters at all, they might as well decide to ask other NATO countries to do QRA, just like the Baltics and Iceland is doing.
However for political and economical reasons most likely they will buy fighters, and most likely they will buy F-35.
Loke(Reuters) – German prosecutors believe European aerospace group EADS (EAD.PA) paid at least 50 million euros ($63.5 million) in bribes to Austrian officials to secure a $2 billion deal for Eurofighter jets, according to a document seen by Reuters.
Authorities in Germany, Austria and Switzerland raided EADS (EAD.DE) sites earlier this month in connection with investigations into suspected bribery, money-laundering and fraud related to the 2003 deal for 15 jets.
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/11/19/uk-eads-eurofighter-germany-idUKBRE8AI0KM20121119
LokeQatar fighter choice still up in the air
http://www.arabianaerospace.aero/qatar-fighter-choice-still-up-in-the-air.html
By Jon Lake
LokeOn his meeting with Stoltenberg, Najib said the Norwegian Prime Minister had offered Malaysia its ship-to-ship missiles aside from the latest technology in the oil and gas sector.
http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2012/11/6/nation/12278798&sec=nation
Most likely the NSM they are referring to.
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