Ja WorsleyIn the case of Australia more Seahawks make alot of sense especially as the USN have there own upgrade program for their own machines which could of met your needs nicely.
Fedaykin: The RAN’s S-70B-2’s and the USN’s S-60’s are very different machines. I have pointed that out many times before, even started a thread about it some time ago…
RAWS V’s LAMPS
Many people seem to think that simply buying more Seahawks from the USN will solve the problem, sadly that is not the truth, our Seahawks are so different to those in USN service that you could call them a different machine altogether.
I think part of the problem with the Lynx was ‘replacement syndrome’ – it was to replace the Westland Wasp as a torpedo carrying helicopter (practically a manned Ikara or ASROC).
Edlaw: Bingo, you hit the nail on the head, well at least as far as the RNZN machines go (Well actually the RNZAF since they are the ones who operate the helos over there and not the navy). The Wasp was a wonderful little machine that had done its time and many in New Zealand would have thought something fishy was going on if they bought another Westland product without fully looking into other realistic options. The deal to buy the SH-2G’s was made on the back of the Aussie deal since it meant that spares and servicing would have been much cheaper, no it looks like it’s going t cost them more, but they are happy with their machines and that is all that counts.
Personally, I think that a lot of benefit could be derived from simply using advanced versions of older platforms:
RAF – P-3 Orions, with new avionics, but fitted with the C-130Js engines and cockpit
RAN – more Seahawks, newer systems, but still Seahawks
RAAF – upgraded F-111s
Aussie Army – upgraded AH-1Ws, or even AH-1ZsThese would all have been in service on time, probably within a reasonable margin of target cost, and would have been a lot more reliable!
Ok firstly I think you mean the RAAF with Orions (well at least I hope you do because you’d upset a lot of people here if you bag the mighty Nimrod- it is a fantastic plane, it’s a shame that they couldn’t find a market for it).
On that note lets look at what you propose:
Orions with Juliette engines; nice idea mate, here’s a thought, google search Lockheed P-7 and see what you come up with 😉 Besides, does Australia need a plane with that kind of capability since we are only expecting them to last another 10-15 years?
Upgraded Seahawks; Wow it’s nice to know that news from our little country gets noted around the globe, even after being published in such magazines as “Air Forces Monthly, Jades Defence Weekly even Pacific Defence Review”. Sorry mate I don’t mean to be sarcastic but the domminance on this board by European and American people does tend to get to me after a while. We have a nice little region down here and we do have a credible defence force that is on par with the top guns of the world, it’s just a shame that no one really takes notice of us.
Upgraded F-111’s; mate the pigs are too old for upgrading, if we tried that now, we’d have the same situation with them as we had with the SH-2G’s. We need new planes for their role and sadly the government won’t look at the only alternative due to political consessions to it’s best friend. (IMHO the only plane in existance that can offer a viable replacement for the Pigs is the Fullback, the RAAF know this and have seen it in action, it’s just the government that won’t touch it).
Super Cobra and Viper; Whoa mate hang on here, the tigers are only having problems because the government is doing the same thing all over again, putting too much into an airframe that can’t take it. Already they are looking at putting MMW Radars on these machines and we haven’t even put them up for IOC yet. Both Cobra models you mentioned were turned down simply because they are at the end of their airframe expansion. The design has reached the maximum limit of progress and can not take anymore. The Tiger on the other hand is only at the start of it’s design life, this was the main factor why we chose it! The Mungusta (my favourite for the Air 87 role) was dropped because it was far too small (the main reason I love it), thus it had very limited growth potential.
What was the mission intended for SH-2s ? ASuW right ?
Spectural: Actually no mate, ASuW was to form part of an intergrated package that also covered autonomus ASW, surface strike and surface surveilance. But te main role for our Super Seasprites was basically troop movement from the OPV’s/ ANZAC’s. The SH-2G with a two man crew could place 11 troops aborad a susspect vessel as opposed to the 7 that the Sea Lynx could set down. Shear weight of numbers on deck was the main reason we went for the SH-2G’s (for the record, i personally would have prefered the SL mainly because of the BERP rotor technology which allows negative lift which would have lightened the displacement of the ships in the way of removal of the RAST system- not really needed ith a Sea Lynx)
About the Lynx, I think that depends a lot on the versions you’r analysing. While the RN one only have ASW as a secondary capability, most other users, like France, Germany, Netherlans, Portugal, etc etc have ASW as its core mission like you can see from their sensor suit, which includes a dipping sonar or previously a MAD.
The Sea Lynx offered to Australia was the same version as the RN’s HMA.8, sure the other countries have very good systems and if one of those models (say the MF Mk 88A) were to have been offered, then I am absolutly positive we would have those in service right now!
Dan: Yes mate it looks like we are stuck with them, so now the question becomes: What are we going to do with them? The US won’t buy them back and the company is laughing at us. Do we go back to the three man crew and down grade the systems enough to make them work, or do we start a new sqdn with a WW2 tasking- “Daytime SAR/ MARPAT”? In terms of boarder security, we could base these machines on the islands and have them patroling during the days, at least we’d have a gap filler for the holes in the AWACS coverage left by the Wedgetail 😉 Realisticly, the chances of onward sale of these machines is basically comical, we have to be lumped with it.
Ja WorsleyAhhhh So it is, thanks Dan, facinating!
Ja WorsleyI like the insigna on the tail, that is new to me anyone have any info on it?
Ja WorsleyEd: mate the local ship builders have also offered designes that were quite capable of fulfilling the role but the Government decided to go off shore, goodness knows why!
Ja WorsleyThe decission to buy the SH-2G was based on very sound evidence that it could perform the required mission perameters including ASW. The Sea Lynx had ASW as a secondary role and is not fully capable in that role, it is more an ASuW striker than an ASW hunter.
That said, the decission to buy second hand models is the part that has not been the problem. The airframes were Zero houred, completely refurbished and new avionics and electronics installed. It is these electronics that are what is causing the problem. The comparison that Brendon Nelson gave today is very good, for those of you outside Australia I’ll make it more internationally recognisable: It’s like puting in 2006 BMW computer technology into a 1952 Corvette, the body might be able to fit it, but they just aren’t compatible!
These avionics are what is keeping them behind schedule (now 9 years behind target date), the opposition are saying finish it of and be done with it, it is no use spending over $1B only to cancel the job, that’s money wasted.
Ja WorsleyThat’s right mate, the whole reason we did buy them as become a lie. We bought them because it was feared that the Seahawks couldn’t operate off the ANZAC’s (lie, the ANZAC’s have been using them for a number of years now.
The other reason was the upcoming deal with Malaysia for new OPV’s (Malaysia canned the deal and bought the A-100’s from Blohm & Voss mainly because the Australian government said it had to build all the ships here in Australia but that final fit out could happen in Malaysia. When The Malaysians pulled out the whole thing was dead and the second reason for buying the helos went out the window, why do we need them now)?
Ja WorsleyI know this gun, I was just reading about it not long ago, I am trying to find out what it is but I do know that it is a version of an old gun that has been in service for some time! As soon as I find it I’ll let you know.
Ja WorsleyWell there you go guys, you got it straight from the horses mouth!
F-15’s are not on offer here as the US are not willing to sell them to Mexico despite the price Mexico can afford. America now views Mexico a little less of a threat than Brazil and that is a little less and Venezuela.
If the AdM does indeed buy them then I imagine the FAM might put their had up for either Su-27’s or the more capable Su-30’s thus the 30-40 you spoke of Garry might be a reality and then the plant might indeed be set up, generating more money yet again as more countries in South America start looking at buying these planes!
Who knows, soon Mexico might be a driving ecconomic force in that part of the world.
Ja WorsleyLaurentH: mate I see what you mean about the Uniform, it does look a lot like something you’d see Mugabe wearing! I too offer my sympathies.
Sadly hardly anyone over there in Belgium really gives a toss, the young people aren’t worried about politics because they have other things on their minds and the older ones are worried because many of them have seen what has happened in the past and think that things will get better. The people of the nation have lost their interest in politics, they don’t care anymore about defence and I get the feeling that they would be happy to let someone else do the hard thinking for them (like the dutch as Arthur has sugested).
I too don’t understand the lion part, perhaps something better associated with Belgium might have been good, like a bar of chocolate, we all know that Belgian chocolate is the best in the world!
I have no fear of progression, I only fear bad taste and this is showing bad taste in the highest degree!
Ja Worsley“Tell the guys over there to give up the dope and clear their heads!”
Kev: mate even my friends in Belgium say the same things so stop getting antsy about t, I don’t make comments out of stupidity, I do quallify them before I make them OK, just chill mate!
Ja WorsleyJa’s spouted a load of rubbish and in the process insulted the Belgian Government.
Whoa Kev, what’s happened to you mate, you never used to be like this! You know I never intentionally insult anyone at all, no matter how much they might be crying out for it! As it happens I have a couple of Belgian friends and they both agree with me about it, in fact ojne of them agreed with me that it looks like the monkeys are running the BDF now! Are you then going to say that this Belgian is offencive as well?
And why single me out? Everyone else has said bad things about it too yet you single me out, why?
till, nothing like going off half cocked when all you’re trying to do is advertise your own forum, is there?
Is that what is bothering you? You think all I am trying to do is promote my own site here? Good joke mate. Despite me making numerous announcements here on this board, those members I do have are from various other forums who like me, got sick of the mud slinging. IIRC there are only a hand full of member from this board on SIA. Anyway this is getting off topic!
I still stand by my original stance that I don’t like this roundel and that is my humble oppinion, it may as well be a top hat through a hoop for all it is worth!
Ja WorsleyI’m sorry, I have to agree with the general consensus here, it is horrible.The belgian government is starting to show who runs things over there, the wesselly little book worm who has no clue as to a real military operation!
The original roundel has been in use ever since WW1 and now they want to throw it out the window for this monstrosity. Tell the guys over there to give up the dope and clear their heads!
Ja WorsleyAccording to the Lurssen site, the Turkish boats are still registered as being the 57m class and not the 65m class despite the modifications. So basically we are both right but just from different angles 😉
As for the Taiwanese boats, I remember at one stage the US asked ASC to build the collins class for the RoCN and they would pay for it, our government refused because we apparently have a “One China” pollicy which only seems to suit some things such as subs and armoured vechiules but not others such as Uranium sales! Slightly odd don’t you think?
Ja WorsleyThe choice of Skyhawks was dictated by size of the carrier Minas Gerais
That could be right, we had Skyhawks on our old Carrier Melbourne and the USN/USMC hated landing on it because it was so small. MG was once in RAN service as HMAS Vengence (1950-1953, loaned to us from the RN, hence keeping the same name, while we waited for the Melbourne which was getting upgrades in the Dutch docks).
Super etendards were too heavy
That’s not true, the MG was of similar construction standards to the older VdM in Argentine service and they had both the A-4 and SuE’s on board. Besides, after the desimation of the engine/boiler room, the AdA did use the SuE’s on the MG a couple of times during joint excercises with the MdB. That statement I can’t believe at all. Besides, the SuE and the current AF-1’s are of similar weights (both being around 12 tonnes).
The main reason they bought the Skyhawks was because they got a good price off the Kuwaitis and the French didn’t have any SuE’s readily available because they were the only plane in MN service at the time with the Raf taking so long to come on line.
Ja WorsleyUmmm Turkey doesn’t have the Lurssen boats in it’s service, the three countries that have the Lurssen 65m class are, Singapore in Missile/Gun boat form, UAE and Bahrain in multipurpose roles with the Bahraini vessels having a hanger for a dauphin helo which lands on the platform and is then lowered down for stowage.
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