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EN830

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Viewing 15 posts - 1,051 through 1,065 (of 4,978 total)
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  • in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1321740
    EN830
    Participant

    But that apart I am thawing. Isn’t the internet a wonderful thing?

    Time for one big group hug ???? πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322119
    EN830
    Participant

    I find it odd how an archeaologist is telling these aircraft historians who’ve excavated wrecks in order to further their knowledge of their particular interest in history that they are nothing more than treasure hunters. I don’t mean offence to your profession Malcolm but that attitude seems like pure snobbish piffle to me.

    Unless I am missing something vital in this and need it explained in small syllables to put me right, because I’m no archeaologist, but I cannot fathom what the difference between an academic archeologist who digs up mummies (grave robbing!) or dinosaurs or old building foundations etc, and an aviation archeaologist who digs up a wreck from 60 years ago is.

    How is it different? You both dig a hole, pull something out, investigate and analyse it to hopefully further your research, and by and large sell it to a museum or collector when finished for preservation – and to pay your expenses.

    The only things different I see apart from one group being able to wave their doctorate and the other (in some cases) not, is that the archeaological study of ancient artifacts is much less scientific in a tangible sense and much more based on theory. Some old pot found in the ground can be theorised as to its age, usage, religious meaning etc – but no-one who used or made the pot is here to tell us and it was never photographed or written about at the time. So, it is either a useless piece of pottery, or a theory has to be developed around it to give it meaning and make it important.

    Whereas we do know all about Spitfires, who designed them, who built them, who flew them, how and why they were used in WWII combat, and all about their engineering, etc as it’s all documented and eyewitnesses, users, even in some cases the manufacturers of an aircraft still exist – so there’s no need to theorise, it can be factualised. And in an individual case like this dig, you can then use all that fact to build up a picture of circumstance – the missing piece of the jigsaw.

    With the pot, we don’t even have a clue about the pot near alone the circumstance in which it came to be buried. You can theorise who may have made it, who may have used it, how they engineered the clay,etc. But it ain’t fact, it’s theory, usually based on comparisions with previous theory. Sometimes no matter how wide of the mark it may be the archeaologist then presents it to the world as ‘fact’ – just like other sciences that cannot prove the theory but present it as the truth – like Geology – has anyone ever seen the earth’s core? No. So who’s to say my theory it’s white chocolate is any less valid?

    Anyway, my point is, is it not a good thing to have people researching these wrecks now and getting the facts down for future generations while we know all that surrounding evidence that is fact. Or would you rather wait 500 or 1000 years till everyone connected to a Spitfire is long gone, no more actually exist for whatever reason and many records have disappeared in whatever wars or natural disaters that are to come, and then have some academic archeaologist dig the remains up only to theorise a little about it using their own completely different and removed discourse and assume he knows all about it, despite the fact he may connect the dots quite wrongly? He may assume that this beautifully crafted metal obkject is some ceremonial burial casket blah blah blah like most things archeaologists dig up these days.

    David well put, but how dare you suggest that it is “Archaeological” snobbery, for Christ’s sake don’t you know that they have letters after their names ???? πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322167
    EN830
    Participant

    And I know of a sister whose brother’s body was never recovered from his aircraft but who had a place to remember him many years later – hopefully it was a comfort.

    I can add to that a Widow and Daughter who were given a point, to where they could return, to remember their lost loved one. It was closure for them.

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322343
    EN830
    Participant

    The point is that there is a need to carefully scrape away each layer of soil if the archaeologists were digging on Roman remains. They may find coins, jewellery, pieces of pottery, evidence of diet etc, which will help them to date the site and the assumed purpose that it was put to.

    However, when digging an aviation site, isn’t the intention to identify the aircraft involved, and if they exist, recover the remains of the crew. So to be honest what is the point of scraping away at the top surface, when the real evidence is 2 – 5 metres below the surface ???? We already have a good idea of when the event happened, what they probably ate, the coinage in use at the time and the standard issue porcelain in their mess halls. The upper surfaces will only return miniscule details in the form of lighter parts of the aircraft, so isn’t it better to jump to the greater evidence below????

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322358
    EN830
    Participant

    I did, but you didn’t get it :rolleyes:

    Actually, you didn’t πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322486
    EN830
    Participant

    Nah, James, thanks Ian.

    So you don’t know or aren’t telling what your Oracle is?

    Sorry, Googled to that world renown tomb of information :-http://www.wordreference.com/definition/relic

    If you are going to have a dig (subtle pun there which you might not get) then at least try doing it accurately

    And if you’re going to be patronising, please try to do it with a slight semblance of humour.

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322537
    EN830
    Participant

    ‘The’ dictionary? Which?

    ‘Relic’ also means an item from a saint to venerate. (And thus, similar uses.) Bader was no saint, but there’s a fair amount of veneration sloshing about. If you treasure the relic because of it’s associations, then it’s one sort. If you use it as evidence to build an historical picture, then it’s the other sort.

    All very interesting.

    Thanks Einstein,

    It also said :-

    Keepsake, souvenir, token, relic, something of sentimental value

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322668
    EN830
    Participant

    an antiquity that has survived from the distant past

    I thought I would check the dictionary for a definition of relic.

    Call me stupid, but isn’t this exactly what archaeology is about as well, looking for evidence of the distant past ????

    And according to the same dictionary, archaelogy is :-

    the scientific study of material remains (such as fossils, relics, artifacts, and monuments) of past human life and activities

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1322683
    EN830
    Participant

    We knew we were dealing with three non-fatality sites and I can assure you that we, or Wildfire TV, would not have gone ahead had we had the remotest inkling that remains may have been present. PERIOD!
    Andy Saunders

    Andy

    As has been said before, even if you were aware that human remains had been present, treated the dig as so, and when discovered those remains had been accorded proper burial, I see no problem with this.

    It is after all, a case of swapping one hole in the ground for another, but at least when re-buried the remains have a headstone as a marker and therefore a reference point for love ones to pay their respects at.

    There are strict guideline in the UK for this type of investigation and recovery. Are their similar guidelines in France and the rest of Europe ?

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1323165
    EN830
    Participant

    Christ !!! You lot were up late last night arguing the toss over this, no wonder I couldn’t sleep for the racket πŸ˜€

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1323854
    EN830
    Participant

    Thanks Mark

    That helmet is in remarkable condition considering how long it had spent entombed in the remains of Don Bostock’s Spitfire. In fact compared to Scheidhauers (The Pilot of EN830) which survived the war with a local family, and which we presented back to the Scheidhauer family in 2002, Bostocks helmet is in superb condition.

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1324014
    EN830
    Participant

    Like a prat I got my times mixed up and missed 90% of the programme and only caught the last 10 minutes. However I was moved when Don Bostock’s helmet and goggles were presented back to his widow, a nice gesture Andy.

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1324044
    EN830
    Participant

    Dilip

    65 years after the date, with the main protagonists long departed to that large airfield in the sky, we can only surmise what actually happened on that fateful day in 1941. I think the best approach is to present the facts, in the best possible way as they stand, and, right or wrong, let the general public make up their own mind.

    Ian

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1324586
    EN830
    Participant

    Shurely not more dirty washing…hic! πŸ™‚ Mark

    Yes !!!! My underwear πŸ™‚

    in reply to: Bader – The TV Programme #1324616
    EN830
    Participant

    Being involved in a number of TV productions over the past few years, there is always something that I have thought after viewing it, was wrong or could have been portrayed better.

    Probably the nicest one I had the pleasure of helping with was back in 2000, when I helped a Polish TV crew to interview people involved with the Poles during the BoB. Ken Mackenzie and Les Batt were two that I had the pleasure of meeting, on that occasion. The reason I say this was the nicest, was when they kindly sent me a copy of the programme, it was all dubbed into Polish, so I had no idea what they were talking about, and therefore I couldn’t criticise.

    Ironically at the same time Dillip was launching one of his books in Worcester, and we were due to come across to the signing. However on the same weekend, the Poles held their last, β€œbig” commemorative service at the Northolt Memorial, we went there instead.

Viewing 15 posts - 1,051 through 1,065 (of 4,978 total)