crobatoI cannot understand what Switzerland and Germany (among the countries the alleged spy sold to) would do with stealth bomber technologies.
crobatoI only referring to Ruaf Su-27SM(first flown december.2002) that was delievered 4 years later compared to Su-30MK to China.
You truly don’t know ****. The RuAF Su-27SM is based on the Su-30MKK. Go ask KnAAPO.
Why its not conflict of interest when they were selling the license of Flanker and trying to sell Su-30 also? how much difference is in technolgy. practically nothing. The mountain of evidence against u is alot on this issue. about sharing of technolgy. there is not even a single decent military thing that Chinese have developed without Russia. and it is not even difficult to prove it through 3rd party.
The MOUNTAIN of evidence is the one truly against you.
You truly don’t know ****. The Su-30MKK has much more capable adar and avionics suite over the Su-27SK. That is why Sukhoi can license the Su-27SK, but for China to make the Su-30MKK, you need to pay an additional license over that.
You simply don’t understand what CONFLICT OF INTEREST means.
this shows how much u know. they have defence magazine separate and it is so powerful that it is daily from each industry, each military exercise, base, training. where is the claim of 45 inked order for reputable source? and continously mentioning it throught out the years.
This shows you how much I know compared to you. You really have not been around in 1999 to 2000 to note that articles from Newsmax to Janes were saying around 45 aircraft, and it was KANWA who reported it as 38.
Furthermore, in the Su-30MK2 order, dailies were all reporting different numbers from 28 to 40, and KANWA reported the correct order of 24.
putting underneath is not the same as on Top. Argus 2000 proposal was radar in nose and tail. just like chilean 707 phalcan. and how do u know there was no Russian involvement in Tu-154?
Lol. Putting it underneath is like putting it on top. You need to modify the airframe in both ways. As for Russian involvment, well, I never saw the Russians modify their Tu-154s into civilian spy planes either.
YOU ALWAYS FAILED TO NOTE THAT RUSSIA HAS TRADITIONALLY VIEWED CHINA WITH SUSPICION AND WILL NOT **TRANSFER** TECHNOLOGY THAT THREATENS ITS NATIONAL SECURITY AND FINANCIAL INTERESTS.
Selling components like radars are not the same as transfering the technology of the radar so that the Chinese could make them. Russia can sell something like the IRBIS to the Chinese, but they’re not going to teach the Chinese how to make them.
kopyo/GrifoM/Apg-80/RDY-2/Bars fully developed and certified when they were ordered? u cannot change the fact that Russian had flown Slot array radar since mid eighties on actual fighter not even on test bed. it may lack the processing power and software development but they had the technolgy to quickly certified if a customer ordered it.
Lol. The fact that it is not usable means its not usable period and that means you don’t have it in any way that the Chinese would desire to have it. In any case we have gone through this again and again, that the Israelis are the contributors to Chinese radar development. They helped fix the JL-7A radar for the J-7D and J-7E so that the radar can que the Python 3, and in 1995, they sold evaluation sets of radars to China, including the EL 2035 derivant for the J-8C. The 2035 is the radar used in the Lavi. That is way before China ever got a slotted array radar from Russia for evaluation. In addition China appears to have gotten at least two EL 2032 radars which ELTA was eyeing for J-7E upgrades in competition with the GEC Marconi Super Skyranger radar. China also had access, obviously, with the FIAR Grifo 7 and MG sets, the MG like the Super Skyranger and EL 2034/35/32 are slotted arrays.
So there is a lot of foreign radars that China had access on, not to mention that IAI ELTA actually opened a Beijing office. Even when Russian provided Zhuks for evaluation with the F-8IIM, it won’t have changed anything. Why would they study the Russian samples when they already have access to radars even better such as the EL 2032/34/35.
The fact that the Russian radars not only lack processing power but the software is coded in archaic assembly language means everything. It means the technology isn’t usable, and the software is so specific to the hardware it is not usable and portable to more powerful commercial processors, leaving them stuck to using Baguiets and other 8 to 16 bit processors when others are running on 32 bits and RISC chips. China needs technology that is workable and proven; theoritical framework, it has loads of it already and don’t need more. You think that China didn’t know about the principles of slotted array mechanical scanning even back in the eighties? The fact that the Chinese programmers appear to be using ADA and C++ for their software shows a strong Western inspiration.
crobatoOne fundamental difference of the Su-15 is the double delta wings. The Chinese never used double delta wings on the J-8II and only did so for the the J-7E which came out out in the late eighties/early nineties.
The way the J-8II evolved is clear. You start out with the basic MiG-21 configuration, lengthen it, apply area rule for high speed, fit two engines instead of one, then increase wing area to match correspondingly. The original split intake and the mount to hold the two engines were inspired from the MiG-19. This created the J-8I.
Then later with MiG-23 like inspirations, you change the round inlet nose with a pointed radome, variable side intakes, and the dual ventral fins with a single folding ventral fin. The aircraft is actually 70% new, with only 30% commonality with the J-8I, and became the J-8II, later as the J-8B when China stopped using Roman letters in their designations.
No Sukhoi in it. China never saw a Sukhoi in its land until the first Su-27s landed there.
crobatowhy Su-30MKK came out ahead of Su-27SM? and Su-27SM is alot more advanced.
What do you really know? The Su-27SKM is so based on the Su-30MKK/MK2 that you can regard the SKM as the single seater version of the MKK.
what is this than?
That is 2005. The first KJ-2000s were flying already by spring of 2004 and by the same year, has at least 3 planes. Fact always remains it is a conflict of interest for the Russians to try to share this technology while trying to sell it to the same customer.
there was three party agreement. and only Uzbek slow it down but they are going to solve it by december.
Lol. The contract is already late and they cannot fulfill it on the price written on the contract. It’s practically dead.
Lesson goes: before you promise to sell something at a given price, will it be a big bother to check up if you can actually produce that something?
so whats the difference between Zhuk-27 and Zhuk-MS. u are not fully understanding the issue.
You are the one not fully understanding the issue when you cannot even tell the difference of the two radars. The Zhuk-M doubled the processing bus width and therefore exponentially improving the processing power that you can fit into the radar. And with that, the processor is also changed. That means an improvement in just about everything that requires the processing juice.
and the others dont have any connections? have u seen Interfax OIL/GAS weekly. how much deep insight they into whole political strucuture of Russia. when they are quiet on some thing and say some thing. It shows the official line.
You’re comparing a non arms industry periodical to a defense magazine that is trying to scoop issues the Rusarms industry themselves try not to say. KANWA was the first to catch the right number of MKKs China ordered (38, not 45 as other Russian publications claimed). KANWA caught the order of 54 AL-31FNs on the same month it was inked, and the Russian pubs didn’t say anything about this. KANWA also scooped the China’s order of the 2 new Sovremannies in the same month the contract was inked. Ahead of everyone.
Why u continue to speculate without studying the matter? Have u seen GEC-MARCONI Argus 2000 proposal. that china should give them IL-76 and they will take it to marshall aerospace UK for modification in fuselage but they cant do the rotodome.
Speculate? The Tu-154 ELINTs were done with fixed underlying radomes underneath the plane that were not done by Tupolev. That’s a fact clearly in every photograph of the plane.
First, NIIR developed the N010 Zhuk radar for the MiG-29M. The radar was first tested in 1986 on a MiG-29 9.16 prototype. In 1991, it was fitted to MiG-29M (9.15) prototypes
In the ’90s, NIIR prepared developed a version of the Zhuk radar called the N010M Zhuk-M. The pure air-to-air C.90 processor was replaced by a Bagiet, enabling several air-to-ground modes
Developing is not the same as ‘having’. Having is when you have them deployed operationally in your air force in a proven and certified manner that is satisfiable with the user. Just because something is being developed, does not mean it’s fixed and usable. You always seem to confuse the two.
crobatoIsrael has data for quite a while so why give all the money to Russians and waste three years waiting to get agreement?
Israel is the only country capable of stealing the IL-76 data. because of common heritage of ruling elite.
Wow, what an answer.
I know one is from NIIR and the other is from NIIP. the point is that at that time Zhuk-27 does not provide the big jump incapability to pursue it further.
Bull. Zhuk-27 got superceded by Zhuk MS. That took place a lot earlier before there was even an IRBIS.
China’s dumping of the Zhuk-27 absolutely has no relation to the IRBIS at all, none whatsover and its not even in the same time scale.
willing to purchase and deal is quite different. certainly not expensive how u know that? have u read the statement from russian china experts?
they were willing to purchase 4 phalcons and reduced to 1 at the end..
Partly because of cost and they need to evaluate one product first. But this is likely because they only need one plane to study the technology.
clearly half baked? It is half baked in terms of certifying on MIG-21 airframe with weopons but not half baked in terms of technology.
u have been prove wrong u put Likely equal to Deal. I
Excuse me. But you have been proven wrong so many times, your veracity to claim FI is flawless as proof for example.
articles are confident but they didnot say the deal is done. there other is totally different thing. No Russian deputy prime Minister is going to say publicly on some zhuk radar sets.
Dont judge every thing by same standards. that if Salut is making news than the other will do the same especially regarding AWACS. other is so minor thing like selling Grifo license to pak. it should not even make a news.
Sorry, but an A-50 would make BIG news, and it is very unlikely that Russia would intend to share the technology of its most advanced A-50 (and quite far from maturity) to the Chinese, and certainly won’t explain why the KJ-2000s won’t come out quite ahead of the A-50Eh.
Furthermore, the Chinese _are_ tending their IL-76s without Ilyushin personnel. The Chinese maintain their Flankers with their own people helped by Ukrainians and Belarussians.
And lastly, the IL-76 contract has yet to be resolved and it looks like China is very unhappy that Russia could not deliver the planes as specified THIS year.
crobatoYour opinion is quite clear that you’re pulling things out of your ass out of the last moment, taking outdated articles that don’t even remotely support the crap that you pull, and don’t even remotely come close to the truth.
KANWA got connections into the Rusarms industry, especially in the radar fields, hence they were first to blurb out Phazotron’s offer to the J-10 project among other things.
On the Tu-154, there is in fact a structural modification on the ELINT birds that added a fixed pod underneath the planes that houses a radar.
And no, the Russians don’t have slotted array antenna in the mid eighties. The Zhuks were clearly a post Soviet Union, Phazotron only project. The original upgrades for the MiG-29 were in fact, based on updating the N010 radar.
crobatoStar49 here never relies on updated information. He just picks and chooses which information, not matter how dated, just to prove his points and has no desire to tell the truth.”
offcourse u have the facility but when u got the facility if at all? and Israel has no access to IL-76 data. thats why they were running to Russians for 3 years for India. there is alot of things behind this and i dont want to go into this.
That’s bull. Israel had access to IL-76 data for quite a while to have proposed the structural modifications that were used on the A-50I. the airframe of which was provided by China.
Israel had other issues with Russia, prefers to sell its own AWACS, the delays on the Indian Phalcon has more to do with politics.
or perhaps Zhuk-27 more expensive than the other and providing incremental capability. so why bother. It is not like big jump to Irbis. and Zhuk-MSE is just bigger antenna of Zhuk-Me of MIG-29. and since no one ordered so why bother with costly flight tests with Flanker. It is byproduct from MIG-29 program.
You really cannot put some coherent thought that the Zhuk-27 and the Irbis are several years apart and not even from the same firms. Zhuk-27 is a bigger antenna and emitter version of the original Zhuk aka N-010 designed by Phazotron as a radar upgrade for the MiG-29s.
More expensive, how is one mechanical antenna more expensive than the other eh? The fact that China was willing to purchase a few Zhuks to test on their outdated J-8IIs tell you that the Chinese and the price offered to them by Phazotron wasn’t certainly expensive.
Flight International, Feb 3, 1993
Mikoyan has proposed a new update for the Indian air force’s MiG-21 Fishbeds, based on fitting the aircraft with mission avionics derived from the MiG-29 Fulcrum.
The aircraft, known as the MiG-21I, is based on the MiG21bis update. The main change would involve fitting a new radar supplied by the Russian company Phazatron.
The Kopyo radar has a track while-scan capability for up to eight targets simultaneously and a 45km (25nm) detection range against a MiG-21. Radar modes include vertical scan with auto lock-on in close range combat, real beam and synthetic aperture ground mapping with picture zoom and freeze capability, and read-out of surface target co-ordinates. A head-up display is also fitted
At that time, the radar is clarly half baked. The Russians do have a tendency to offer half baked items, aka displaying the Kh-59MK antiship missile on the MKK prototype 502 in 2001 Paris Air Show when the missile is only due for development completion in 2006 apparently.
And again, your news is from Flight International, very good in releasing half baked information.
ELINT
and Y-8 is building for how many years and how many u have rotodomes? the balance beam is far easier part. Dont assume that u can copy one product u can do with the other.
And how many do you need to have rotodomes eh? With the balance beam, the rotodome variant became superfluous. No surprise the balance beam is the one the PLAAF is planning to use and the rotodome is the one for export.
No one has said about the deal. It is just possibility. the other is clear from ITAR-TASS, KOMMERSANT, AVIATION WEEK. there is no second opinion about this.
Bull****. Articles are very confident that the deal would be consumated that even the Swiss arms registry SIPRI had the 100 Zhuk-8II radars listed in its edition for three years, and then finally deleted it.
If Phazotron had actually shipped Zhemchugs to the J-10, it would have made big news, just as Salut made big news shipping the AL-31FN for the J-10 despite Chinese insistence of secrecy, though at the beginning, Salut did keep its mouth shut until 2002. Phazotron is no less a PR monger than Salut, and given its tendency to preannounce, Phazotron is probably even more eager for the PR.
crobatoWhat this has anything to do with beliefs. I posted the information from so many sources and u havent provided anything from even a single source to condridict it. and i dont go other forms.
so kanwa is 100% accurate and the rest are not.
The editor for KANWA also works for Jane’s.
Generally KANWA is quite good for covering Russian affairs. FI has certainly done a poor job in the past.
it is not about zhemcheng. it is the technlogy to build slot modern radar.
Lol. At 1998, Russia didn’t have the technology to successfuly complete development of slot array radars. NIIP Tikhomirov decided to bypass the slotted array generation to phase array.
In 1996, China considered and perhaps even signed, to acquire Su-27SMK for J-11 production. The plane uses the Zhuk-27, or the Zhuk intended for Su-27. Obviously it didn’t work because a few years later China was getting the MKK which still uses the twist Cassegrain N001VEP with R-77 and TV guided weapon features. Zhuk-27 was abandoned for the Zhuk-MS, which is based on the improved Zhuk-M and hoped that for the later MKKs. But in 2001, that didn’t come through either. China wanted the Zhuk-MSE for the Su-30MK2, but had to settle for an improved variant of the N001VEP. By 2004-2005, China had lost its patience, stopped the ordering of Su-30s. Zhuk MSE only finished its development, testing and certification in 2004 aboard the Su-33UB.
For that matter, China also aborted its planned purchase of 100 Zhuk-8IIs for the J-8II and the Zhemchug (aka Zhuk-ME) for the J-10s.
In 1995, China was already testing KLJ-1 radar onboard a J-8C, a plane that also reported to have been testing the ELTA M 2034 (sounds like a variant of the 2035 used in the Lavi). In 1998, China was already testing JL-10A aboard a JH-7 prototype.
I am saying converting 4 IL-76 into A-50 in 3 years. U just cant buy old IL-76 from market and do it without having the data. otherwise China would have done this instead of buying new as russia is not buying new but extending current life. and where is ur indigenous IL-78 tanker.
U are not smarter than UK/Israel.
If you have the facility to overhaul the IL-76, you certainly could convert it. Furthermore, the modifications to the A-50I were not made by the Russians but by the Israelis, and they differ quite from the Beriev planes.
how many Y-8 AEW and KJ-200 do u have and when the program started? maybe 2 or 3 each and it is nothing comapred to IL-76.
u dont have that many Y-8 with antennas and i am sure it started long time before KJ-2000.
I am comparing Chinese to Russian/Israel.
Actually you will be surprised. How many variations of the Y-8 have we seen so far?
With Round Rotodome
With Balance beam phase array
With JSTARS like SAR radar
With side scanning antennas and ECM work
With Litton radar for MPA work
With Skywatch radar for AEW work
With C31
With ELINT
They certainly knew how to mod the Y-8.
As for the IL-76, they had it long enough to understand how to modify it obviously. Its far from a new plane.
so it has bought the technology.
so any thing that goes against ur stated belief so kids must be doing it. they are calling RD-93 license version as WS-13. so there is no point in calling it indigenous.
Your credibiltiy is low for attributing a fan based website.
crobatoQuote:
Originally Posted by crobato
Russia never formally sold any slot array radar to China other than evaluation samples. China has considered and negotiated for buying slotted array radars from Russia, but in the end, these negotiations were dropped. Russia and any magazine never reported an actual completed sale, and if there was such a sale, it would have made the headlines considering how much the Russians were hyping so confidently that the sales were done deals even before they were actually signed—which they never did.they are very confident of Technical cooperation increasing. but Chinese has said to remain quite.
Is that not enough what they are publicly saying?
What do you mean? Selling radars is not technical cooperation in helping China to develop radars. The only technical cooperation you get is installing and integrating the Russian radars to the said planes.
Quote:
http://www.flightglobal.com/Article…evelopment.html
DATE:04/03/98
SOURCE:Flight International
China/Pakistan signal intent to resume FC-1 development workAn indigenous pulse Doppler radar, the JL-10A, is being pursued by Chinese electronics specialist CLETRI , with help from Russia.
The planar antenna is from Phazotron, as is the transmitter. While this radar may be intended for the Chengdu F-10 programme, a smaller variant may be pushed for the FC-
Chengdu has received design assistance on the FC-1 from Russia’s MIG MAPO, with engine manufacturer Klimov proposing a version of the MiG-29 Fulcrum’s RD-33 powerplant
The problem with you is that you are unable to verify if the article is true or not in the long run. Showing articles does not make you right if you don’t have the brains and the research to validate them further.
FI also said things like the Su-30MKK getting Phaztron Zhuks starting from the 21st plane which turned out NOT to be true. FI also said China ordered 100 Zhuks for J-8IIs in 2001 which also turned out NOT to be true.
We have already seen pictures of the JL-10A. The servos of the antenna certainly do NOT match that of the Zhuks. The JL-10A also lacks the abilities to use the R-73, R-27 and R-77 as well as Russian SAPSAN and antiship weapons like the Kh-35.
On the FC-1, Phazotron proposed the Kopyo-F, not the Zhuks.
Yes China has been developing radars from 1960s thats Why Pakistan put Grifos on F-7 in 90s and later when China become reach in 21st century it just bough russian technology and put it for radars like FC-1.
Because China did not allow Type 226 radar to be exported, and that radar can use the PL-8 and subsequent variants. The Grifo 7 while it has a more advanced slotted array, is forced to use AAMs that are not as good as the PL-8, which is essentially an improved Python 3.
It is software that is the issue. any modern radar and u can mix east and west weopons.
Not as easy as you think.
Frankly if Chinese indigenous r&d so good. should we be seeing Python 5 in export market from China since Python 3 tech was sold some 2 decades ago. what we have is some incremental modification after 2 decades when israeli left.
That incremental modification is not incremental at all. China has changed the seeker completely on the PL-8B/PL-9C. It retained the Python 3 airframe because changing to a new airframe means changing all the launch rails in the entire PLAAF. Personally I don’t think the Python 4/5 airframe offers anything more than the Python 3. What’s really important is the seeker and the motor. For the PL-9C, China increased the range of the missile from 15km of the Python 3 to 22km. The only difference between the PL-9C and the PL-8B is the shape of the fins, which I don’t would matter much aerodynamically but only a lame attempt to give the PL-9C some kind of “identity”. China also has increased the FOV of the PL-8B to 60 degrees off bore using gimbals and has enabled the missile to use helmet sights. The seeker uses InSb elements, has four arrays each looking at a different part of the specturm. The seeker is also liquid nitrogen cooled.
China is pretty satisfied with this missile so that it does not even bother copying or licensing the R-73 or adapting the said missile to their domestic planes.
crobatoThe fact that they went through all this expense to buy out Vera tells you that the Vera is on the right track with regards to bistatic and multistatic radars.
crobatonope. it is russia selling there slot array technolgy for fighter radars. Israelis are much clever in selling technologies. they sell the end product. look at India.
note the world similar technolgies.
Russia never formally sold any slot array radar to China other than evaluation samples. China has considered and negotiated for buying slotted array radars from Russia, but in the end, these negotiations were dropped. Russia and any magazine never reported an actual completed sale, and if there was such a sale, it would have made the headlines considering how much the Russians were hyping so confidently that the sales were done deals even before they were actually signed—which they never did.
so from where the technology behind J-10 radar comes from? every body can make a factory for radar manufacturing but the basic and applied research takes decades of experiance.
And China have been developing fighter radar since the sixties. They included radars for the J-8I, J-8II, the J-7M, the JH-7, Q-5, J-7C/D and the J-7E. Certainly not the best in the world nor even the most reliable, but each of them are valuable learning steps. Israel and dual use electronic technologies also provided valuable technological assistance and foundations that helped move China to develop slotted array radars and starting in 1995, the KLJ-1 was already being tested on the J-8C, and in 1998, the JL-10A was already being tested on JH-7 083 prototype.
The fact that these radars are used to fire missiles with more Western design attributes (PL-11 -> Sparrow, PL-8 -> Python 3, YJ-81 -> Exocet/Harpoon) tells you that these radars are learned and developed with more of Western basis of technology, and the most likely source for this information is Israel. The fact that these planes never ever once shown any use of Russian missiles like R-73 and R-27 despite tons of them in the PLAAF inventory, also shows a lack of compatibility with these misisles, which is something you don’t expect a Russian sourced radar would.
crobatoso do u think every thing is indigenous. or there is foreign marks on every thing.?
Did the US and Sweden provide technological cooperation in the development of the KJ-200, the SJ-321 and the 052C Red Aegis radars and FCS?
crobatoso they cant build conversion and overhaul facilities for china. u need alot of wind tunneling for antenna. and it is not even necessay that there Beriev version will be the same or look like the same.
They do have a conversion and overhaul facility for IL-76 in China. That’s already documented in photographs. As for Beriev antenna, the Phalcon antenna is of the same design. Looks to me more like Beriev following Phalcon. By the way, how many ways can you actually design a rotodome with a 3 faced phase arrays.
crobatosalut hasnt changed its mind. China never asked for. and in 1995 China may not even have the money for license or they couldnot forsee the deman or there is also be internal industrail opposition or there is promise of indigenous product at that time (like Kaveri promises). there could be number of reasons for not getting it. u can see this from the FC-1 biggest customer when they put WS-13 as license product not indigneous.
You must have pulled this out of your ass. This is contrary to what Janes reported that China was interested with the AL-31F license during discussions in acquiring the Su-27 license and was refused.
crobatothere are alot of other things regarding IL-76.
i have already finshed ur myth regarding indigenous WS-13. by clearly pointing a link to pakistan aeronautical website. and according to saturn engine it takes 4 years to certify a new engine from scratch. so it does not take so long.
You mean you want to believe on your myth that the WS-13 does not exist when it is so listed in Chinese goverment websites.
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