The last one looks like a target drone.

ur 300MM fab is built on imported components. U dont have science behind it.
It is contract manufacturing. Sistema owns MTS Mobile. that alone has sales of $20B. First u buy your consumer division throught out Eastern EU, India and ex CIS and later own build manufacturing capacity to supply to your own divisions. It is not depended on outside customers.that will squeeze u for every dollar.
i am not even going into defence sales which are not even included. Just space industry components are in billions.
This show the true state of R&D.

You don’t have the science to make fab either. So what is your hypocritical statement is all about. Actually Taiwan and China has already started designing and manufacturing fab equipment on its own. Its all really just a matter of time.

http://www.eetimes.com/news/semi/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=164900837

China now manufactures about 25% of the world global demand in chips. About 10% of what it makes goes to its own military and defense sector.

Wrong. Sistema only owns stock in MTS, which has many shareholders. Pointing to MTS Mobile is irrelevant since it has nothing to do with chip production.

China’s true state of RD is the fact it now is among the top five nations in the world for patent filings.

Su-34 has multiplex channels and level of avionics offered with MIG-35/Su-35are well known. China hasnt graduated from medium tech level. It is practicall 5thgeneration avionics on 4.5 generation airframe.

You must be really so darn stupid. Multiplex channels have been in consumer electronics since the eighties with the simplest microcomputers.

Why would would Russia needs its own money in car manufacturing or car imports from China when West is going to build everything for them.

The basis of a defense military industry comes from a commercial industry. You have not known by now, that the West superiority in the defense military industry comes from the roots in the commercial industries. I remember AGAT claiming a significant improvement in the R-77’s seeker performance when they used a garden variety TI 32032 DSP in place of the Russian one. How you manufacture TVs and radios will be reflected in the manner you manufacture avionics for bombers. Things like quality control in mass production. Things you won’t learn without a large commercial industrial base. Did you ever learn how the US auto industry played its decisive part in helping to win WW2? The defense military sector has a lot to learn from commercial electronics, hence the term COTS is the hot thing. Commercial electronics are happening in Moore’s cycles, and that’s way a lot faster than developing electronics specifically for the defense industry, where it becomes obsolete by generations by the time it reaches service. Things like GaN fabrication, which has made GaAs obsolete in AESA, started in the commercial field to improve telecommunication and wireless broadband performance.

why u need proof for some thing on knaapo website

Really where?

life time requirement of F-16? where this comes from. It is official website with 4000hrs. Not ur speculation.

Really where? Show me.

I posted certain links that were deleted becuase of that Hyper complaining. It shows whole sale transfer from outside. ultimately u will lose in 450mm sector as cost of going beyond certain point is unaffordable unless u have certain mtheos.

They will not go under as the are the front end of Russian government for leapfrog others in technolgies. they arent only for selling on retail. they can always increase the price of natural resources around the world.

Lose how? You can’t even manufacture sellable products. You don’t even have 300mm wafers. You got less than 1% of the semiconductor market. TSMC mades nearly double in a quarter of the entire Sistema makes in a year, and has a three year plan to build more foundries at a cost of total of at least $14.7 billion. How many years does it take for Sistema to make that kind of money what TSMC has for chump change?

You are nothing but a cockroach trying to compete with elephants.

http://www.eetimes.eu/199700781

http://article.wn.com/view/2008/05/06/450mm_wafer_coming_in_2012/

http://article.wn.com/view/2008/05/15/AMD_to_outsource_more_CPU_production_to_TSMC_report/

Crobato here is a good example the Russians are modernizing their machinery tooling

Savelovo Joint Stock Machine Building Company “SMZ” is situated in an old Russian town Kimry within 125km to the north from Moscow on the Volga bank which is the homeland of A.Tupolev.

In March 1993 the factory was registered as Savelovo Joint Stock Machine Building Company” (JSC”SAVMA”).

The Company is a large machine building enterprise now. It manufactures complex high-precision equipment of the new generation that is employed not only by the airspace industry but also by other industry branches of Russia and the Commonwealth of Independent States.

Good for them, but here is the REAL TRUTH about the Russian machine tool industry.

http://www.larouchepub.com/other/2006/3325russian_auto.html

Globalization Devastated
Machine-Tool Industry in Russia

by Rachel Douglas

“The Russians just bought our entire assembly line at auction,” an auto industry trade unionist told my associate over the phone. And which Russians would that be? It was easy to find out: Type “Sterling Heights, Michigan” in the Cyrillic alphabet, enter it into a Russian-language search engine, and—voilà!

NIZHNY NOVGOROD, April 14—GAZ will spend $150 million to purchase equipment and licenses from Chrysler. The GAZ group plans to acquire equipment from DaimlerChrysler AG’s Sterling Heights, Michigan assembly plant for around $150 million, GAZ group Deputy Director of Strategic Planning Erik Eberkhardson has announced. The price includes the cost of shipping the production facility and setting it up in Russia, as well as the cost of the machinery. GAZ plans to make the purchase with its own funds…. Eberkhardson said that the U.S. factory would begin to be dismantled in May. Within a year and a half, it will have been completely reinstalled at GAZ, where there will be a separate assembly unit. American specialists will be on hand to assist with set-up, quality control, launch, and the assembly process itself.

GAZ, Gorkovsky Avtomobilny Zavod—a name out of history. The Gorky Auto Works in the giant industrial city of Nizhny Novgorod, Russia’s third largest, which was called Gorky during the Soviet period, is where the Reuther brothers, Victor and future UAW leader Walter, worked in 1933-35. As Victor wrote movingly about it later, they were at GAZ during the time when young Russian men, born into peasant families, were being trained as tool-and-die makers, becoming the most qualified people in the Soviet labor force.

And now GAZ, owned by a Russian aluminum magnate, is buying an entire assembly plant from Chrysler in Michigan. What is this? This is globalization. The average wage of a full-time worker in Russia’s auto industry rose from the equivalent of $72 in 1999 to the equivalent of $250 in 2004, according to a Russian Academy of Sciences study. That’s per month. About $11.50 a day.

The story about Gorky and Sterling Heights brought into focus for me the source of the queasy feeling I’d had over recent weeks, as one report after another came in on Western car manufacturers setting up assembly operations in Russia. The rush did not start yesterday. Already in 2002, for example, the Ford Motor Company opened one of the first foreign-owned assembly plants, near St. Petersburg, to turn out Ford Focus cars. Renault, KIA, BMW, and Hyundai have assembly operations in Russia. In 2005 a total of 156,920 foreign-model cars were assembled in the country. This Spring has seen an explosion of such activity: General Motors in a deal to put up a Chevrolet assembly plant near St. Petersburg, Volkswagen choosing the city of Kaluga in central Russia for its semi-knocked-down (SKD) assembly facility for up to 115,000 cars annually. Nissan and Toyota have made known their intentions to start turning out cars in Russia.

The coincidence of the surge in new assembly operations in Russia (and the Czech Republic, and Mexico, and Mississippi, and many other cheap-labor venues) with the breakneck demolition of the auto industry in the U.S.A., as well as the U.K. and some other places, was not missed by Russian commentators. Under the headline “General Motors Hides From Bankruptcy in Shushary” (the St. Petersburg industrial area announced for the GM assembly plant), Rosbalt news agency on June 1 said, “Market analysts and experts are unanimous in their opinion, that GM is not really going to build a new factory in St. Petersburg, but will simply be shifting facilities here from European countries, where the company has been cutting back production and laying off workers.” Rosbalt noted that GM plans to close 12 factories around the world, eliminating 30,000 jobs. The St. Petersburg government granted GM substantial tax breaks—total exemption from the property tax and a reduction of the tax on profit—in order to attract the plant. Other cities competing for the assembly operations have done likewise, also taking advantage of Russian Federation Government Resolution #166, which authorized the lifting of tariffs on car components imported for assembly in Russia.

In that respect, the GAZ-DaimlerChrysler deal is an exception, since the proprietor of the transplanted assembly facility in Nizhny Novgorod will be a Russian company. Prof. Stanislav Menshikov, the noted Russian economist, reports in his book The Anatomy of Russian Capitalism, that the privatization auction of GAZ in 1993 was a scandalous affair, during which GAZ management was accused of using government funds to buy up shares in their own factory. Nonetheless, GAZ executives owned the auto works until 2000, when the Kremlin-favored aluminum tycoon Oleg Deripaska made his move to take over GAZ through his Ruspromavto group. With 51 “dollar billionaires,” most of their fortunes based on oil and metals exports from giant companies they acquired during privatization in the 1990s, Russia has become an integrated element of major global financial flows.

Most of the new assembly operations even aim to market the cars in Russia, to the upper crust that can afford new cars, which is a relatively tiny layer, but not negligible in a country with a population of 143 million. Where they are going to drive the cars is a separate question, since the condition of Russia’s roads has not been addressed in a decisive way in recent years and Moscow gridlock is a phenomenon that has to be experienced, to be believed.

I asked a Russian friend of mine, who watches the country’s economy closely, his opinion of the latest auto deals with GM and Volkswagen. “In some other day I would be against it,” he replied. “But now this Third World-type SKD production is at least bringing jobs to some Russian regions where a great number of enterprises just dropped dead after the hurricane of ‘reforms.’ “
Ordzhonikidze Moscow Machine-Tool Factory

The fallacy of “cheap labor” is a fallacy everywhere it is applied, in the industrialized countries and the Third World alike. The interrelated cases of America and Russia, the world’s superpowers in the second half of the 20th Century, dramatize how the loss of the machine-tool sector destroys the national security, damaging the ability of a national economy to recover on its own.

Given the size and degree of development of the Soviet industrial economy, Russia should not be importing auto assembly plants. But Russia’s ability to build up its own auto industry was crippled in the mid-1990s, when the Ordzhonikidze Moscow Machine-Tool Factory (ZiO), the U.S.S.R.’s only manufacturer of integrated auto assembly lines, was privatized. The interests that took over ZiO stripped out the machine tools and turned the floor space into offices for rent. It looked like what is happening in Michigan and Ohio today.

I was there in April 1994, accompanying Lyndon LaRouche as guests of ZiO General Director Anatoli Panov. A scientist and a production man to his core, one of Russia’s leading experts on machine-tool technology, Panov was then recovering from a physical assault in which he was nearly killed, as the fight for control of ZiO had begun to heat up the previous year.

He showed us the shops, and briefed us on the plant’s history as the flagship of Soviet civilian-sector machine-building. “The factory’s role in meeting major national economic objectives grew markedly in the period of postwar reconstruction and thereafter,” Panov told me in an interview later that year (EIR, July 29, 1994). “ZiO began to produce automated transfer lines, transfer machines, and custom machine tools…. In 1959, the factory produced the U.S.S.R.’s first numerically controlled (NC) semiautomatic lathe…. In the 1960s, the factory increased the output of automated lines to the level of 42 per year. In the 1970s, it produced most of the equipment for the Volga and Kama Auto Factories (VAZ and KamAZ), and equipped other important plants: the Minsk Motor Factory (in Belarus), the Lenin Komsomol Light Automobile Factory in Moscow (AZLK), the factory in Taganrog that produces ‘Kolos’ and ‘Niva’ grain-harvesting combines, and others.”

I asked Panov, what would happen if he lost control of ZiO. He warned, “I think (although I am doing everything in my power to prevent this) there is a high probability that, under the pretext of creating an industrial-finance company, our factory will end up as the property of individuals from the finance companies and commercial banks. In that case, I believe that ZiO will cease to exist as a machine-tool company, not because—I emphasize again—it produces unneeded goods, but because its new owners are not going to invest their funds in complex and expensive production processes. They will prefer to free up the shop floors for the now extraordinarily profitable business of warehousing imported goods, as well as for rental as office space to various firms. In light of what I have said about the unique nature of ZiO, I am absolutely convinced that this is wrong from the standpoint of the national interest.”

One month later (EIR, Sept. 2, 1994), I reported under the headline, “Machine-Tool Plant Seized by Bank Clique,” on Panov’s ouster from ZiO. The perpetrators were from two banks, Keibank and Orgbank, which had maneuvered into ownership of a controlling stake in the company.

Vladimir Lisichkin is a top expert on Russian industry (translated excerpts of his report on the first stage of privatization in Russia, “bandit” privatization, appeared in EIR, Nov. 3, 1995). As a State Duma deputy for three terms, he made efforts to save ZiO, paralleling those of Panov. In an interview with Trud newspaper, April 3, 2003, Lisichkin recalled, “For five years I fought for the Ordzhonikidze Machine-Tool Factory, whose shares had been bought up by three banks through cut-outs. This was the only enterprise in the country that made NC machine-tools for the auto industry. The new owners, who didn’t give two hoots about manufacturing anything, immediately sold off the machine tools, or just scrapped them. And then they rented out the shop floor—in central Moscow!—as office space. The fight I waged did not succeed.”

Arkadi Volsky, head of the Russian Union of Industrialists and Entrepreneurs, told Trud in November 2003, “The Ordzhonikidze Factory is just standing there, and we’re buying machine tools [abroad], which are no better than the ones we used to make.” In March 2006, an entire wing of ZiO burned in a huge conflagration. The plant’s 22-acre territory in central Moscow is prime real estate. Last year Mayor Yuri Luzhkov announced that the French retail chain Auchan would develop part of the site as a shopping mall.

“What are you so distraught about the machine tools for?” asked another Russian friend. “Think of the people, their skills! The time will come when something has to be fixed, and they’ll be gone.”

ZiO employed 4,000 workers. While its products were shipped to customers throughout the Soviet Union, the Moscow plant also served as a training center for workers and managers from all over the country. Panov told me about that in 1994: “From the ranks of the first generation of ZiO workers, the 1930s generation, came management, engineering, and scientific cadre not only for this factory, but for the entire machine-tool sector, as well as scientific research institutes…. From the 1950s through the 1970s, ZiO transferred a number of its production areas to other plants in the U.S.S.R. Production of turret lathes was shifted to a factory in Alapayevsk. Production of two models of semiautomatic hydroduplicating lathes moved to a factory in Yeisk. Production of five models of centering-milling machines went to a plant in Kostroma. ZiO personnel helped set up the new production on site in each of these cities…. From the early 1960s on, ZiO helped to train managers, engineers, and skilled workers for new machine-tool plants….

“The situation of the Russian machine-tool industry, including our plant, has been deteriorating since the moment the market reforms began, and even somewhat earlier. Skilled machinists have been and are being let go…. Many former workers from this factory, in their search for a wage on which it would be possible to support a family, quit the machine-tool sector altogether…. If we go much farther, the last skilled workers and specialists in machine-tool construction will join the ranks of the unemployed….”

Between 1990 and 1994, economist Sergei Glazyev documented in his book Genocide, that the output of Russian machine-building dropped by 60%. The number of people employed in industry fell from 22.8 million in 1990, to 14.7 million in 2001—the relatively less ravaged oil and other extractive industries included. The average age of a tool-and-die maker in the United States today is 55-57 years. In Russia, that is approximately the age range of life expectancy for the male population.

However it does not mean Russia in the past or in the Present has always been on leading edge of technology, if the J-11B is more advanced than the original Su-27 is logic, the Russian lost investment in the early 1990s from the soviet military machine, china did have a good strategy, building a russian fighter (the only available for them) with some machinery taken from different sources among them western adn japanese machinery, was it smart of them? yes it was. was it practical? yes it was, however Russia did the same and continues advancing in all the areas of aviation.

See that even if the chinese build the J-11B for export will be only competitive in price, however in technology it is not ahead of the Su-35, is it a good machine? i guess so and the Russians are aware of that that is the reason they want to stop them from selling it to regurlar chinese customers.

However it is not like you portrait the Russian aviation industry russia has recovered a lot the time lost of the 1990s and modern russian equipment still is in demand.

The Chinese is not trying for the J-11B to get ahead of the Su-35. They got no reason too, they’re trying to achieve a better cost-effectiveness ratio. The Su-35 is not better than two or three J-11B. Furthermore, the Su-35 is not in squadron service and not until past this decade. Starting early this year, the J-11B is now operationally in service.

Furthermore, the Chinese prefer to use proven technologies rather than hot air, unproven technologies that can break in the field. While they had great trust on the equipment they got from the Soviet Union, the modern experience from “modern” Russia tells them to be wary.

I remember what one Chinese text said, and that is, they only prefer to buy the equipment what the Russian armed forces are willing and have tested for themselves.

When the time comes, the Chinese should have follow up projects of their own on the J-11B.

With all due respect why even bother trying to export it? Given the export and design portfolio that German yards have I see no reason whatsoever to market the F-125 on the international market unless there happens to be a country come along with very convergent needs.

I kind of think the entire MEKO concept was to build and market a family of modular warships that can be tailored to varying customer needs. The whole MEKO thing is the business of selling warships.

Not only the aircraft is underlicense but the plant is also under licence so how do they know u can do better:)

Bull. The plant is certainly not under license, especially when KnAAPO was so proud advertising that the most automation they have in making their aircraft was a pneumatic hand drill.

You basically cannot make a medium tech fighter by your self so starting from J-10 to J-11- L-15 To ARJ-21 to FC-1 everything is from outside and it is proven by official sources in various countries. I am not even going into entire history.

Well China does now and the technology has been learned. That’s why the most the Chinese will buy from Russians are token save-the-face deals like buying some 4x4s.

Su-35 maximum is 34.5 vs 38.8 for MK2 but it has 11.5 tons internal fuel capacity and 14 stations (2 ECM+12weopons) so how it is same weight structure as MK2. I am not even going into 3D TVC system.

11.5 tons internal fuel capacity? That’s bull****. Cite sources

FC-1 does not have 6000hrs and L-15 is paper specification.

Sorry but the FC-1 has at least 6000 hours, while Russians never live up to their specifications by at least 25%. Actual life of AL-31F is only 750 hours, despite 1000 flight hours spec’ed.

Not shared by the world.? Just look at Size of IPO of sitronics and R&D vs any fab manufacturer of Taiwn.

LOL. The IPO of any Taiwan fab manufacturer is a lot LARGER than sitronics.

Sitronics is a midget compared to TSMC, which has quarterly sales of over 2.75 billion US dollars, while the entire Sitronics has annual gross revenue of 1.6 billions. That’s yearly.

In the last quarter of 2007, Sitronics lost $154 million dollars, net operating lost.

For just the final quarter of 2007, TSMC had a net income of around 30 billion NT$, which is roughly a billion dollars.

Pure assumption. so how come India is satisfied now with all the qualities. Indian takes even the smallest quality and delay issue.

LOL. India is now considering things from Hornets to P-8s. Don’t see any new Russian deal going.

now u will start eating ur own words about Two being delivered?. the rest of issue is the applicaiton of $250m from MIG-29 contract money to flanker contract.

Six being delivered like what, starting in 2006? That’s like two in a year.

Lenovo is biggest assembler without any intellectual property of its own. thats why it cannot develop anything else. Mikron and sitronics are full service research firms with supplier to European customers in vast telecommunication area. they can make electronic passport and smart cards.
quality motherboards? first try to put Avionics in that ARJ-21. and it is not even high end airplane like A-380 avionics.
ur the one claiming that China will put fighter AESA ahead of Russia?. Russian can not only demonstrate fully functional AESA at Airshow but can also transfer its technology. You just wait one to two years more and see the end result of Russia great leap forward due to money on acquistion and its own R&D. ur time was in the 90s. u can no longer catch up. It is just one subsidiary of Sitronics have 70% staff in science.

LOL. Mikron and Sitronics are losing money.

Lenovo has over 2000 patents.

http://www.lenovo.com/lenovo/us/en/

It makes like $13 billion in annual revenue.

Compare that to JSC’s annual revenue.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=OTC:JSCSL

That’s like 1.6 billion.

The next is the project with one of the Russian partners to establish together with Altis full scale production using 90 nm technology, and later on 65 and 45 nm at 300 mm diameter wafers in Russia, says Mr. Simonov. He also tells in the coming months Altis stakeholders together with interested Russian partners intend to approve the development concept for an international design center

LOL, still talking about building things with 90nm, when the Taiwanese are already planning an building fabs that will do up to 15nm.

we are talking about semiconductors and the amount of scientific contibution to this field and that incluedes basic research, chip design, fabless firms,fab equipment. and the contribution to global level not assemblying $10 stuff underlicense built on imported equipment.

Always talking about technology that never see the light of day, or pay up in the bank. Where are your Russian designed motherboard chipsets, sound chipsets, graphics chipsets, networking chipsets?

That’s why Sitronics is sitting on a money hole, hundreds of millions of dollars lost in 2007.

http://finance.google.com/finance?q=OTC:JSCSL

But TSMC registers

”Third quarter set a record for our business in terms of revenues and
wafer shipment, where all our three major market segments (communication,
computer, and consumer) saw double-digit growth sequentially, ” said Lora
Ho, VP and Chief Financial Officer of TSMC. “

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/10-25-2007/0004689810&EDATE=

so why they are using T-90 label when they are not recognizing any Sukhoi lablels?

it is clearly on Knaapo page. weights are there 34.5tons maxiumum vs 38.8 for MK2 but MK2 does not have the phased array radar and TVC engine. and it is 4++ not F-22 class.

LOL. Those are the exactly same weights for Su-30MKI and MKK.

At least T-90 has more changes than Su-35 from Su-27.

where is ur 12 points?

10,000hrs. this another speculation from media. u dont have any data. showme link to website. Even FC-1 is at 4000hrs at best. Chinese are not at 6000 interms of multirole fighter. Maybe at trainer at best.

That’s reported by Chinese media. FC-1 is at least 6000 hours. L-15 is 10 to 12,000 hours.

so how is going to sell inside Russia where 50% of defence market is domestic and it is pretty big. and infac that Sitronics have billions of dollars acquisition. one of AMD plant completely dimanteled from Germany. and several projects with infenon. when Angstrem can buy AMD Fab in 2006 so just think about Mikron and its resouces. Its cash money is right at Intel level.

It is just assembler. nothing to do with producing lithiography machinery for fab. thats Mikron head is in leadership council of Semiconductors.

You really have a fantasy notion of Russian semiconductors, which thankfully is not shared by the rest of the world.

If it was anywhere 80% in 2004. u would be producing hundreds of J-11s by now.

LOL. Production of J-11As is limited by the supply and production of engines and avionics from the Russians, which are often rejected by the Chinese because of quality issues. Thus these components have to be rebuilt and resend until they meet standards. The Chinese cannot make the planes without the Russians filling the other 20%. Which is why in the J-11B, they went 100%.

six are delivered. and it is 100 hundred aircraft per year. Just Sukhoi RRJ will be 70 alone with 4 prototypes this year. Let see there are 4 prototypes.

Don’t throw your hot air until they are actually built and delivered.

As for LENOVO, which is world’s 3rd largest PC manufacturer, it has a lot of subcontractors in China that provides components. LCDs are made in China. Keyboards are made in China. China has advanced wave soldering used on motherboards, and the ability to make quality motherboards is fundamental to reliable electronics from celphones to PCs. Does Russia make export quality motherboards? Don’t give me the bull about Russia only making top end military stuff. In electronics, if you don’t have the quality controls to do the high quality consumer stuff, you don’t have what it takes to do the military level. It goes from the bottom up. China has 25% of the world market in 2006—Greater China, with Taiwan and HK, already constitutes 33% of the world’s market by 2005 (Pricewaterhouse Coopers). What share does Russia have?