Because it is called S-400 not S-300 variant in Russian service. Which is completely separate from downgraded export variants S-300PMU-1/2/3.

No its kind of like T-90 getting a new number despite being a derivate of the T-72. Kind of like Su-30/33/35/37, even though its all just Su-27. In fact, the RuAF still officially uses the Su-27 label, and does not recognize whatever adhoc names Sukhoi makes.

Su-27 can carry 9.4tons but Su-35 can carry 11.5 tons internally. but Su-35 is lighter than any other Flanker built untill this point? how ur going to achieve that? Even F-16 has increased weight. J-11B is the same obsolet thing as Su-27SK of 1980s. Show me J-11B with 14 hardpoints in multirole?

Su-35 lighter than any other Flanker? Show proof of that. Show proof that it carries 11.5 tons internally. It got an opening bay like F-22?

Hard points are not hard to add upon a wing. After all, the Chinese may not have seen the logic of going to 14 points when you already have 12.

J-11B as a matter of fact, got longer airframe lifetime than Su-35 (10,000 vs. 6000 flight hours) while weighing several hundred pounds lower than an Su-27SK.

so where is Chinese 45nm process? u cannot go directly into 45/65nm process unless ur alteast 90NM in lab conditions. there theorictical reasearch is at 18nm.

No they are all planning to go to 45nm process and as a matter of fact, already producing at 90nm. In Russia you don’t even have 120nm process. You don’t even have 300mm wafers, just 200mm wafers. You don’t even have 1%of the market.

Lenovo is the third largest customer of Intel, after HP and Dell, and HP and Dell manufacture in China, with LCDs, chips, motherboards made in China.

this is nonsense if u can make 80% of airframe in 2004 by there would be 100 J-11B by now.

Stupid. That means all China airframes, using Russian engines and avionics making up the 20%. Which actually pretty much accounts for more than half the J-11s and J-11As.

New engines, FBW, complete weopon testing for strike aircraft, extended airframe hours. The amount of work involved is as much as new aircraft.

Which the Chinese have the resources to accomplish, and questionable for the Russian industry.

six are delivered. there is 110 aircraft delivery from Irkut in next 3 years.

No two are delivered. Nothing that shows your over a hundred aircraft a year.

from where this information comes from. u can only count export fighter with certain relaiability.

More than just assembling, some parts are made in India. Assembling the plane is the greatest part of the manual labor.

Once again, shows nothing to prove your 100 aircraft a year.

yeah they are going to tell you that they spent $9b on weopons. what they ae not tellling that is the story.

You just don’t have the facts to back up your alleged 100 to 200 billion Russian military budget.

Yes China has 7% inflation if u believe in false statistics. Just look at Food and energy alone.

That is the food and energy inflation alone.

u dont have 10 or 11 J-11B in airforce colors. there plenty of upgraded MIGs and Sukhois at factory. Just in one shoot of Sukhoi SSJ u can cleary Ruaf Flankers at Knaapo. I am sure many more are inside factory.
http://www.knaapo.ru/rus/gallery/events/civil/index.wbp

You are just in denial.

We have up to 12 or 13 J-11B in airforce colors as of February based on photographs. By now there should be a full regiment of at least 24 aircraft.

show me some sign deals? not just newspaper speculation. why that Barak deal has become frozen. light copter with Euro has been cancelled now Kamov and turbomeca are joining hands in new way for cheap Euro entry.
MIG-29 is continue to be upgraded along with R-33 engine assembly.

Heh, look at the P-8 deal with the US. Check the Indian thread for more. MiG-29/35 are ruled out of the MRCA program.

offcourse. If Chinese can copy the rest of world products. i am sure Russia can rewrite contracts.[/QUOTE]

In what court and under which law is russia planning to take action ??

That’s the question I’ve been asking them forever, and all you get is spam of walls of irrelevant text.

who knows anything aout S-400. It has been exported or evaluated. It is like saying that F-22 can use F-15C weopons. So it must be derivative. Same is with T-90. just compare price of T-72upgrade to T-90. It is different capability

If you don’t know anything about the S-400, what makes you think its brand new then?

SHOW PROOF OF THAT CLAIM.

name me a single part of Su-35 that is same as Su-27? u cannot even manufacture Su-35 in Su-27 factory. J-11B is same Su-27SK

Bull. The Su-35 has the same basic airframe design as the Su-27 even if the parts underneath has been changed, lightened and reinforced. That’s the same banana as the J-11B, which is also reengineered from the inside.

But the outside design and aerodynamics are still basically the same.

where is that coming from. They are going directly into 0.45n. EU is at 0.32nm in 2006.

Read your articles. They’re only planning in the future, which is saying they don’t have it now. Everyone talks about advancing to smaller units, but only few have the money for it.

Show me something they have NOW, not the usual Planning to Invest balony.

In 2004 80% of components?

Practically the entire airframe is made in China, sans engines and avionics.

this is from 2004.

Yeah, delivered like 10 planes.

I guess u havent added those 26 SU-27SM. between 2004-06 period. MKM was slow because of integration. Everything will be completed this year. all 24 to Venzueal completed this year. 26 Su-27SM completed this year. 16MKA completed this year. Not to mention 10 Su-34. and sending kits of atleast 16MKI.

Su-27SM are upgrades. They’re not made brand new but by converting existing aircraft.

Kits do not mean completed aircraft. You only collect parts from different contractors and put them in a box.

Only two Su-30MKA are delivered.

5 Su-34 are expected to be delivered this year.

HAL is assembling? once u have parts in place even Indonesia can assemble it.

More than just assembling, some parts are made in India. Assembling the plane is the greatest part of the manual labor.

In weopons R&D and production Russia share is far greater. Russia energy prices are far below the market price. lowest world taxes but biggest budget surplus in the world.
I am not even going into material prices. Real budget of Russia will be well $120B. translating PPP will be alteast $360B.

That’s all BS. In 2007, Russia purchased like 9 billion worth of equipment for its own armed forces.

that are official figures.

inflation is double digit but wages growth far outstrip inflation so they dont have fight inflation like other countries thats why putin has 80% popularity.

More BS from FallenStar49. The reason why you need wage growth is to keep up with inflation and the wage growth reinforces the inflation cycle, creating a nonstop Catch 22 cycle of inflation.

China only has 7%—7%–inflation for this year. Russia has inflation by the hundred percent in the nineties and stabilized to double digit inflation every year.

fact remains that ur just beginning. come back when u reaches 80 figure. U cannot even make 10 J-11B per year after 10 years of licensing.

Pure BS. In February 2008, we have pictures of J-11B no. 12 and 13 intended for the 1st Division.

there is 3 way contract.

Which makes it even worst for the Russians.

from where u got this information. by the time MRCA reaches India it will be atleast a decade with huge mixture of components from different countries. Barak has been frozen. why is more A-50 with double the price of previous one? Tu-142 will remain in IN service for long time.

MRCA won’t be Russian, simple as that. India continues to shop, elsewhere from Russia.

they are introducing new methods of business that they want to impose on rest of the world. Rest of world has to live with it just like China.

New methods of business? Like breaking contracts?

Sorry, but that does not make it official. Anything from a third party source posted in a host does not make the third party’s opinion shared by the host. That’s how the media works.

If you really want to prove that a formal legal action has been made, print text from Ross or from the Russian government itself, not second hand from news reports. Name the international court its been filed. Please note that the Russians are not a member of the WTO and the WTO does not cover national security issues.

Somehow formally, Ross mentions the MiL-17 license officially and clearly in its web page as front page news but the J-11 issue is not? Furthermore, that webpage you referred to isn’t even directly linked from the main page, like its buried deep so people don’t notice it exactly.

You can see where its going.

The issue is all moot anyway. Russia isn’t going to win any law suits here but as complaints go, they’re going to get some kind of compensation anyway.

heavily derived from S-300? No one knows exact specification of S-400. it is certainly completely new system. If it was the same they wouldnt be exporting S-300PMU-2. show me deployment of Yakhont in Soviet times just like YF-22?. T-90? different engines, armour. on what basis ur saying lada is not innovative. Its quietness is several magnitude of kilo thats why it is not allowed for export. u cannot make Su-35 in the same production equipment as Su-27. Just look at engine life, TWR of engines (different materials), Fibreoptics channels, FBW controlled 3D TVC, 15inch LCD screens etc. If it looks the same it does not mean that technology and production process the two are the same.

S-400 is not a new system. It used to be S-300PMU3. Everyone knows that T-90 is a T-72 derivate. Lada is several magnitude quieter than a Kilo, ha, it failed its trials, which is why only one is made and it has been lifted from being offered to Indonesia.

Su-35 is still derivate of Su-27. You still have the same design as the Su-27. None of what you said makes the Su-35 a brand new plane, unless you want to say the same standard for the J-11B.

so it is 2003 now?
just look at PAK-FA thread next year they are going to 65nm and than 45nm. and they are not low cost producer for DVD, PCs.

Bull. They only talking of getting to 0.9, and still currently at 0.18. Low cost producer means having quality at low cost. The fundamentals of commercial electronics industry benefits that of of the defense electronics industry. You build from the ground up, not top down.

so complete engines, kits does not matter along with huge staff deputed to Chinese factory to teach them how to make flanker? i am not going to other exports. Supply started in 1992 but ended in 2004. Twelve years the most and from 1992-97 Chinese were not buying huge number anyway so how is that Russia supply fault?

Bull. Kits in 2004 were far from complete. In fact, by 2004, China made up to 80% of the components.

Never a point? how all those tally add up. India had 32 MKI by 2002-2004. and China got all 100 MKK from 2001-2004. So that alone is 132. there is additional supply to some other customers. in mean time and what about those UBK supply in 2001-02?

WRONG. India got 10 Su-30MKI in 2002, and no, they didn’t have 32 MK by 2004, because around 18 of said Su-30s are Su-30Ks they got before 1999. China got 100 Su-30MKK but the production started in 2000. UBK supply was 10 planes a year and 8 planes in the final year for 28. UBK and MKI was made by Irkut, and MKK by KnAAPO. No MKI was completed when the first 20 UBK was completed, and the first 10 MKI was only completed after the last 8 UBK was completed. This is by Irkut. 2000-10 UBK, 2001-10 UBK, 2002-8 UBK, 10 MKI.

MKK started deliveries at the end of 2000, and has been on the average of 19 per year (2000-19, 2001-19, 2002-19, 2003-19). In 2004, they delivered 24.

So you have two factories, and the output at best is just between 30 to 40 at its peak and under 30 for the average.

Hardly the hundreds per year as you claim. Delivered to others? The MKM was only delivered last year. Only two Su-27s and two Su-30MK was delivered to Indonesia. Vietnam had two to four Su-30MK. That was pretty much after 2005.

they had 18 Su-30K to train one. And from 2002-2004 they got 32MKI and now it is over 80 with kits.

The 32 you are mixing MKI and -K numbers. And yes, they probably have 70 to 80 but that’s because HAL is now assembling. Otherwise you see Irkut isn’t moving anything more than 12 per year on something as complex as the Su-30MKI.

Yes Chinese made factory renovation ahead of Russians in 90s but now Russians spending is far greater than Chinese on military as most of Chinese money is going to fight inflation. they simply dont have the kind of surplus money,experiance, supply chain,technical skills of Russia .

How is Russian spending greater than the Chinese, which is officially now at 50 billion and unofficially at over 100 billion? Any official proof of that?

In 2006, the Russian military budget was US$26 billion.

Fight inflation? You are so funny and delirious. You once claimed that double digit inflation in Russia is good.

Inflation in Russia is double digits yearly. In fact it was a whooping 12% last year. The Russian military budget actually does not keep up with the inflation.

You are the one claiming on this form that ARJ-21 will fly before SSJ and that despite having ready engines form GE.

thats why SSJ is flying but ARJ-21 is on the ground.

I am not even going into global supply chain of Russian copters. Just look at UN operations, war zones etc. Now they are discussing license for Iran. and SK alone operates 50 Ka-32. first time supply to Japan and some other middleast countries. The need to increase production to 500 per year just to meet the domestic demand.

UN operations? You are barely into UN operations and can’t even control the war zones.

The fact remains, China is now assembling MiL-17 helicopters because you are incapable of meeting the demand of at least 80 per year.

Chinese dont lie? making indigenous claims of J-10. ur only referring to false interview without any basis of reality. IL-76 price is $50m per aircraft for every one.

There are always false interviews with the Russians, e.g. arms reports of signed contracts that never actually happened.

IL-76 price is negotiated between Russia and China. You signed a contract, you live with it. Otherwise, you are guilty of lying and misrepresentation.

Increasing purchase from West? what were thos Jaguars, Sea harriers, Mirag-2000, U-boats,Arjun Tank(MTU Engine). All those belong to Coldwar era.
fact of matter is Russia can afford to play tricks.

Oh really, why is the MRCA basically about Western fighters? Why is India looking at Orions? What are those Barak missiles?

IL-76 with 60 tons capacity, 210 MTOW, increased range, 15% better fuel efficiency, ICAO-5 nosie levels, PS-90 engine is not product of soviet union.

No one asked for that. You provide the IL-76 as specified in the contract and at the price in the contract.

If you want to offer upgrades, make a separate contract. Facts remain the Russians don’t know how to do business.

those tanker will completed and sold in open market for much higher price.

What a joke. The facts is SEVMASH could not complete those contracts, and that cost the Norwegian company much more money. They could probably build those tankers in Denmark or Korea for a much better price and quality.

If you get the Russian version of the Rosoboronexport webapage and you click in Novosti or news of 22 and 24 April or in Обзор Прессы and later in 22 апреля 2008 г.
you get the news article Rosoboronexport has posted, effectively the news are from pravda but posted by Rosboronexport so Rosoboronexport is giving credit to Pravda and i can prove it to you

this is the home http://www.rusarm.ru/

Which doesn’t show it.

and this is the news article http://www.rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html both are rusarm.ru, the home page is rusarm.ru and the page is rusarm.ru/news/lenty/lenta_08_04_22.html so your intent is first is not accurate niether logic and can be disproven quit easily

The links you are referring don’t work at all.

And this is what I found in an article dated April 22, 2008.

Google translated.

“ROSOBORONEKSPORT” FORUM TO “HIGH TECHNOLOGY XXI CENTURY”

Yeah, its an exhibit.

Also you are wrong the Il-76 is a russian product, Illyushin is Russian it is no more Soviet but a product of the Russian federation, therefore capitalist Russia has the right to say who ever Russia has to that the Illyiushin is now a Russian product and therefore only a product Russia can commercialize no swindle Crobato just capitalism

remember ROSOBORONEXPORT is the Russian defence export state corporation so if they posted that it is really a fact and no matter how you deny it you can not avoid that fact

Sorry, but the IL-76 is a product of the Soviet Union, and so are the Su-27 and a whole bunch of other stuff that has to rely on parts from the Ukraine, or Belaruss or Uzbekistan. A lot of engineers were from all over the SU, and not particularly just Russian.

The fact remains that the Russians failed to deliver on a contract. That’s obvious.

Just recently a company for Norway canceled their major tanker contract with SEVMASH. Obviously SEVMASH cannot complete their contracts at the time frame and cost the Norwegians wanted. You can see a pattern here.

This writer is certainly living in 1950s. even if Russia buys from these plants they cannot produce 21st century weopons. u need not only new industrial machinery from EU but also trained workers in these countires. infact Russia thinks it will become so wealthy by increasing prices of natural resources that Eastern europe will not be able to afford its gas so it is spending $30B to reroute energy stream

The truth is Russia isn’t producing any 21st century weapons. All its weapons under production are Cold War types updated with more modern electronics.

Name one weapon that is actually designed in the 21st Century that isn’t rooted in some Cold War design.

http://www.zelao.ru/
read this website of russian semiconductor city and its connection to Bavria.

Who cares. Read the industry standard semiconductor publications and I will ask what is the Russian share of the world semiconductor production which is less than 1% of the world.

I am waiting for Chinese industry to produce more Flanker class fighter than Russia per year.

Russia never produced over 30 Flankers per year after the Cold War. That’s a fact.

Chinese simply cant produce 120 medium class helicopters per
year.

And the Russians can’t produce 80 medium class helicopters which is why they’re sending kits to China.

Tashkent plant is in Uzbekistan not in Kazak. they already delivered and is capable of making 10 by next year end.

that is the reason for accelerating delivery of IL-76 to various customers.

Which means that the Russians are lying when they claim Tarkshent isn’t capable of producing the IL-76. You only proved my point.

Did the US build more Harriers than the number allowed by England?

Did Norway, the Netherlands, Denmark and Belgium build more F-16s than the allowed by the then General Dynaics now Lockheed Martin?

Did Italy build more speys than the allowed by Rolls Royce when they built the AMX?

Did India build more Jaguars or MiG-27 than the allowed by Russia, France and England?

Did Japan build more F-4s and F-15s than the allowed by the US?

Did England build more AH-64s than those allowed by the US?

Did Chile build more C101 Mirlo than the allowed by Spain?

Does Brazil build more Eurocopter helos than the allowed by Eurocopter?

Does Mexico build more Fuselages than the allowed by Bombardier or MD helicopters?

Did Turkey build more F-16s than the allowed by the US?

Did Israel build more J-79s than the alllowed by the US?

You are so awfully naive.

Its not whether the parent country allowed. To answer your questions, all the licensing countries built all what they wanted, and its the parent countries that happily provided. Its not what the parent country DECIDED for them. If the US wants more Harriers, the British are more than happy to provide them. You have no idea what licensing is, its the licenser—the CUSTOMER—that decides what they want.

Here is the reality, from an article by UPI, which is at least some steps above Russian rags that take Internet photos without attribution.

Analysis: China copter deal — Part 3

Published: May 15, 2008 at 7:16 PM

By MARTIN SIEFF

WASHINGTON, May 15 (UPI) — Russia’s landmark sale of transport helicopter assembly kits to be assembled in China could point the way to a vastly larger transformation in global arms production.

As we reported Tuesday, the Russian Helicopter Co., which is now run by Oboronprom, has concluded a deal to sell assembly kits to build M1-171 military transport helicopters to China’s Lantian Helicopter Co., which is located in Sichuan province.

Under the deal, Lantian at first will receive and assemble 20 Mi-171 kits a year, but the number is expected to rapidly grow to 80 kits a year.

That would mean that under this single deal, China will quickly be producing two-thirds as many Mi-171s as both production lines in Russia combined. Russian Helicopter makes the Mi-171 at two plants in Ulan-Ude and in Kazan. In 2006, 150 Mi-171s were scheduled to be produced, but only 120 of them were, representing a shortfall of 20 percent from the original production target.

Such shortfalls and bottlenecks are typical of the Russian Defense Ministry, and they are a major reason why President Vladimir Putin last year authorized the most radical restructuring of the Russian military-industrial sector since the disintegration of the Soviet Union and the collapse of communism at the end of 1991.

In itself, the deal is a relatively small and apparently unimportant one. The Mi-171 is a version of the old Mi-8 military helicopter that was already the workhorse of the Red Army in the Afghan War from 1979 to 1987. Russia is therefore not yet reversing or abandoning its longstanding policy of not letting the Chinese get their hands on production technology to make state-of-the-art land war weapons systems or their support aircraft.

The deal does not reflect any significant change in Russian policy because President Dmitry Medvedev took over from Putin last week. The negotiations and process of closing and approving the deal were clearly concluded well before the change in the Kremlin took place. And in any case, as prime minister of Russia, Putin will now have an even more direct hand in controlling the country’s military industries and their policies.

But the move does appear to be one of the first substantive changes implemented by the restructuring and new leadership for major defense corporations that Putin ordered last year. And as such, it has truly far-reaching potential consequences.

Putin has worked hard over the past eight years to revive and rebuild Russia’s once awesome military-industrial sector. But it has still never recovered from the loss of the enormous heavy industrial plants of Belarus and — especially — eastern Ukraine, and the loss of direct access to Ukrainian coal and steelmaking capacity in the Don Basin, or Donbass.

The Kremlin has certainly not lacked the financial resources to revive its military industries. With oil prices now spiking at an extraordinary $126-plus a barrel and Russia confirmed as the world’s second-largest oil exporter and largest combined oil and gas exporter, the investment has poured into the old aircraft, tank, helicopter and other weapons-making plants.

But corruption, the lack of sufficiently trained workers, serious quality control and management problems all have gone unresolved. Russia’s ability to produce even enough weapons systems to modernize its own armed forces has fallen many years behind schedule.

There are major strategic risks for Russia in giving China the ability to produce many of Russia’s key weapons systems far more quickly, more cost-effectively and — most importantly — on a vastly greater scale than the Russians themselves can do. But the Kremlin is clearly testing the waters about taking that road anyway. If the Mi-171 co-production deal proves a success, many more, bigger agreements on the same lines can be expected to follow.

© 2008 United Press International

In other words, something more like the Mil-171 deal is the way to go.

I doubt that Russia will ever win in court, but some compromise will be made, possibly in terms of monetary payment or allowing Russian suppliers to participate and supply for the J-11B program (engines, parts of fuselage, avionics).

The agreement was made considering resposabilities and limits, China withdrew unilaterally and said we do not want more Su-27s, the issue is the J-11 is a Russian airframe with Chinese parts built thanks to technology transfers made by Russia.

Technology transfers from Russia? The Su-27 technology is not completely Russian in the first place, but shared with other former Soviet Republics.

Russia up to a degree knew the risks, the shell of the J-11 is not Chinese in fact it shows how limited are the Chinese in aerospace and aerodynamics, why use a limited old airframe to fit new weapons and avionics?
why not make a new airframe? but what we can expect if basicly all the Chinese aircraft have Russian tech.

Because the Chinese are in a hurry. You honestly think that’s the only aircraft they had plan? The J-11B is nothing more than a stop gap to their own 5th generation project.

the issue is simple China wants to con Russia under the excuse the subsystems are made in China, the Russians will sue not because they need more sales, no they sue because China should build its own fighter, but it is evident that all the chinese fighters need Russian experts so the Russians are not going to abandon the military lnks with China still there is money to make in China because China soon will be at least 15 years behind Russia when the PAK FA flies and already the Su-35BM is 10 years ahead of any Chinese design.

even the J-10 has Russian tech and still won`t beat the Su-30MKI and Su-35BM, the JH-7 still is uncapable to compete with the Su-24 and much less with the Su-34 and China still has no Tu-22M or Tu-160 equivalent and the J-8II won`t be better than upgraded MiG-29s or MiG-31s

What Russian tech the J-10 other than the engines which is changeable to something else? The Russians are still sore that the Chinese did not pick Phazotron for its radar and choose not to equip the plane and buy R-77s and R-73s for it.

Who does the con job here?

Pinkov interviewed Tarkshen Aviation and Tarkshent claimed they were more than capable of producing the IL-76s the Chinese contracted for. But the Russians want the money to themselves (Tarkshent is in Kazakhastan) and moved the contract inside Russia, which however lacked the facilities to manufacture the plane without a massive investment to build the facilities. Now guess who is helping SAC to build a new transport plane.

The Chinese had enough of these con games the Russians pull trying to get more money AFTER a contract is signed, the same tricks the Russians pulled on the Indians at least twice.