Haven’t read of any Su’s bouncing MiG-29s on take off in that war.

MiG-29s were bounced in a couple of incidents (once after shooting down aN Ethiopian Mig-21).

That might speak miles about Su-27 radar/sensor performance over MiG-29.

I don’t think Iraqi MiG-29’s arrived in time to see combat against Iran.

Also I do remember reading somewhere (perhaps an old Air Power Journal from about 1991) that the Iraqi MiG-29s were considerably downgraded in terms of avionics. They also apparently weren’t supplied with AA-10/AA-11 missiles but were instead using older AA-7/AA-8.

But then the AA-10 proved to be a dud in Ethiopia-Eritrean conflict with only 1 kill out of reported 20+ launches.

Regardless, USAF F-15s had no problems blasting either Mirage F1EQs or MiG-29s out of the sky.

List of Iraqi air to air victories:

http://www.acig.info/CMS/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=37&Itemid=47

Only confirmed MiG-29 kill was another MiG-29 in a friendly fire incident.

. I guess it would be quite logical to assume that the design excels in BVR under specific circumstances (especially opponent’s radar emitting), still the words about “completely outclassing” anything else in BVR seem quite exaggerated to me.

I dunno.

The F-15 after all did completely outclass everything for a long time and especially the mainly Russian ****heaps it flew against (monkey model MiG-21/23/29) as well as more up-to-date Mirage F1.

The F-22 is a whole different kind of beast that jumps a generation.

In the end it’s kind of irrelevant. US F-22s will never go to combat against Eurofighters or Rafales or Gripens.

I suspect their first kills will be against the same old monkey model MiG-21/23/29 junkheaps the F-15 and F-16 had no problem with dealing. Oh and maybe some antique F-4s and F-14s if the US ever decides to resolve the Iranian issue. 😀

But thing are less clearly cut when fighting other countries aircraft.

Probably cause all parties involved tend to use these sort of press releases as nationalistic propaganda and as marketing for current products.

What do they expect?

These are high performance aircraft doing incredible things. Of course they crash sometimes.

And it’s an idiotic article – it even includes a shot down Hercules..

And the attrition rate is far greater than that. 😛

You can add Azerbaijan, Sri Lanka, Philippines, Congo (they currently have extremely obsolete fighters) as well as Nigeria to the list of possible customers. Nigeria and Sri Lanka both operate Chinese fighters, and may well be interested in the JF-17 if it is affordable- and its likely to be cheaper than all the alternatives in the future. Once J-7 production stops, if a third tier air force wants a non second-hand fast jet component, they’ll have few options but to look at the JF-17. China may then want to sweeten the deal by offering cheap credit.

Phillipines – highly unlikely given Philippines close relationship with USA and recent territorial disputes between China and Philippines. Philippines has ordered Korean TA-50s.

Nigeria – did list them.

Azerbaijan – seen these guys mentioned as a JF-17 buyer but nothing concrete. I suspect they will buy Russian when they do buy.

Sri Lanka – possible.

Congo? – which Congo? And highly unlikely in both instances. DRC is still in a state of civil war whilst Republic of Congo is extremely poor.

The risk would have depended on how much change Australia wanted.

Problem is Australian defence procurement has often been run by imbeciles who make everything over complicated e.g. Collins class subs, SH-2Gs etc.

The best procurement programs we’ve had have been off-the-shelf procurement ala F/A-18E/F and C-17A.

As soon as you get an Australian bureaucrat in, the program becomes a mess.

K8’s done quite well given low sales of anything military this decade.

That graph is wrong too – Egypt has acquired 120 K-8s including 80 licence produced.

As for the JF-17, it is daft to assume it can compete in anything but third world markets.

The US nearly has a monopoly on Western fighter procurment – either via the teen series or via the F-35. Even comparing the Mirage 2000 to the Teen series shows complete US domination of the Western market in the 1980s and 1990s with the French fighter a medium player. Other than Saudi Arabia, Tornado was not even a player.

The Russians have a borderline monopoly on cheap heavy fighters, i.e. the Flanker series.

The rest of the market has been struggling :

MiG-29 – sales to Indian Navy as well as “marginal countries ala Myanmar, Sudan, Yemen. Prospects not so good.

JAS-39 Gripen – currently exported 88 aircraft to 5 customers (includings Switzerland) despite it’s cheapness. Not a single order for 30 aircraft.

Rafale – 1 export sale to India (126 aircraft).

Eurofighter – 1 small sale to Austria and 1 large to Saudi Arabia. Aircraft numbers are same as Gripen (87 export orders).

Now compare that to the F-35.

Even older US aircraft are doing well:

F-15 – three sales to major airforces for a total of 168 aircraft (Singapore, South Korea, Saudi Arabia).

F-16 – ongoing sales to medium airforces as well as attrition replacements – Pakistan (34), Morroco (24), Oman (24), Iraq (36), Poland (48) – 166 off the top of my head in the last few years. And previously in the 2000s we had big orders from Israel (102 F-16I) and UAE (80 F-16E/F).

F/A-18E/F is the only export dud with a mere 24 aircraft sold to Australia.

I read somewhere that fighter sales are down 90% since 1990. Furthermore many smaller operators are still flying 1970-80s vintage MiG-21 and F-5 types.

Many others, especially in Africa, are out of the business of flying expensive jets.

So the Chinese don’t really have a competitive product or an an available market.

– Their old market (Africa, Albania) is pretty much non-existant except Pakistan.

– Anyone even close to the US sphere is on board for either Teen series or F-35s.

– Non-US affiliated buyers with money go for Flankers.

– Anyone else has a crowded bunch of suppliers after them – Gripen, Eurofighter, Rafale, F-15/F-16/F/A-18E/F, MiG-29, Su-27/30.

So the Chinese jets are stuffed.