thobbesErm…Canada isn’t launching air strikes against Russian targets.
As for anti-American bias, it’s not. Russians have been doing the same thing in their part of the world.
It’s just the truth – Libyans, Afghanis and for the most part Serbs and Iraq had no way of successfully defending themselves against NATO airstrikes. Neither have the Chechens or Tuaregs in Mali. Or the insurgents in Pakistan the PAF is pounding. Or the insurgents in Yemen that Saudi Arabia and Yemen are pounding. Or Turkish AF pounding Kurdish rebels.
Or the various narco militias in Peru, Brazil, Colombia etc.
Do you see a pattern?
The Georgians scored some success but a lot of that was due to poor Russian planning and coordination.
Only places where AD had any success was Libya against Libyan AF and Syria. In both instances the air forces lack even the most rudimentary guided weapons and counter measures coupled with poor training and poor overall capability. In essence it’s WW2 era tactics against ancient MANPADS and AAA.
The one thing about War is the next one is never like the last one.
You keep saying that, yet nearly all the wars fought over the last 20 years have been remarkebly similar – i.e. insurgencies or against low tech, low capability opponents.
In fact Afghanistan was interesting in how much stuff the US had to relearn from Vietnam – MRAPs are a great example (compare to armoured US trucks or riding atop M113s – realistically US should’ve developed MRAP 40 years ago when South Africa and Rhodesia/Zimbabwe were first developing such vehcles).
No-one can afford or wants to risk conventional warfare between high tech countries.
Last air combats were in 1999 and then they were against a low tech, poor capability opponent that was outnumbered (i.e. Serb MiG-29s that were delivered in 1988-87) or relatively incompetent slugfests between Ethiopian Su-27s and Eritrean MiG-29s. Last massed air combat was 1991 and that was limited compared to say 1973 in Yom Kippur or 1982 over Bekaa or even Vietnam.
Open your eyes to more than just America/NATO and you’ll understand better.
thobbesStealth is pointless for intercepting Tu-95s or bombing defenceless third world types.
Situational awareness – largely pointless for intercepting Tu-95s but good for bombing defenceless third world types.
Sensor Fusion – largely pointless for intercepting Tu-95s or bombing defenceless third world types.
thobbesAnd I doubt that F-22 will ever face F-35 in combat! 😀
To be honest individual fighter capability is irrelevant in something like the US military whose operations are complicated combined arms packages with electronic warfare and AWACS assets supporting, strategic bombers, cruise missiles and other force multipliers.
T-50 may be 10 times superior than an F-35 or F-22 but that matters little if the Air Defence network is neutralised and its air base is being hit by B-2s and cruise missiles and any airborne jets are facing a heavy jamming environment with loss of C3 whilst US force has as close as you can get to perfect C3.
Individual fighters capability is more relevant to smaller operators who are waging war alone and don’t have all those force multipliers the US has.
One got a lot more valuable combat data about aircraft performance in Iran-Iraq or Bekaa Valley in 1982 or Falklands than it did in GW1 when US overkill meant that individual aircraft capability was largely irrelevant.
thobbesSure but:
1. F-22 pilots are elite of the elite in the USAF.
2. F-22 pilots pretty much just do A2A whereas F-35 pilots will be jacks of all trades. Guy who spends most of his flying time practicing A2A by default has more relevant experience than a guy who spends a lot of time flying ground attack missions.
Also right now F-35s are only restricted to flying basic maneouvres as well as speed restrictions. They’re not flying ACM profiles. Oh and they can only fly in good weather.
That’s kind of normal when testing is not fully done.
thobbesA few years back there was some information that gave good grounds for the numbers, There were only ~70 UK serial numbers allocated for the F-35, and while the serials remain,.
So here are the UK F-35 serials – there are 66 of them including current 3 aircraft:
http://www.ukserials.com/
2BK.0001 ZM135 Lockheed Martin Lightning II f/f 13/04/2012, handed over Fort Worth 19/07/2012, d/d Eglin 23/07/2012
2BK.0002 ZM136 Lockheed Martin Lightning II f/f 11/07/2012, d/d Eglin 19/10/2012
2BK.0003 ZM137 Lockheed Martin Lightning f/f 01/04/2013, d/d Eglin 25/06/2013
ZM138 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM139 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM140 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM141 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM142 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM143 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM144 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM145 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM146 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM147 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM148 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM149 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM150 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM151 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM152 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM153 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
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ZM155 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
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ZM157 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM158 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM159 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM160 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM161 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
ZM162 Lockheed Martin Lightning Allocation reserved
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thobbesThere were only ~70 UK serial numbers allocated for the F-35
That is very interesting!
thobbesF-22 has another advantage – pilots generally selected for it are usually the best in the USAF.
thobbesI agree with all your points.
The other things the above analysis shows is:
1. Limited ability to contribute to collective defence under NATO.
2. No ability generally to participate in expeditionary warfare under NATO.
3. Heavily reliant on US/Western Europe for defence. This leaves less for NATO expeditionary warfare (e.g. air defence of Albania, Slovenia and Baltic 3 are handled by other NATO members thus utilising aircraft that could be used for other deployments).
4. Combined with shrinking Western NATO forces, it goes to show how the organisation is in many ways quite hollow with ever decreasing capability.
5. An analysis of ground forces reveals a similar deficit in both quantitative and qualitative factors.
The interesting thing is most of these airforces will shrink even more in 2015-2025 period (Romania’s entire fighter fleet is expected to be 12 F-16A/B). Even Poland will cut at least 1 more fighter squadron (2 x Su-22 squadrons replaced by either 1 fighter squadron or 1 UAV squadron).
Helicopter numbers will shrink as well – a lot of those listed above aren’t operational and probably won’t be replaced.
thobbesActually original UK Typhoon plan was 250 airframes back in EAP days, then 232, then 180 and now down to 160 with only 107 to be retained after 2020. Cold War put an end to the high numbers.
I suspect F-35 numbers will be higher than 48 but certainly not over 100 and certainly not original 150 and 138 figures originally quoted.
thobbesJ-10 induction is very rapid for modern times considering they were inducting J-11 at same time. which Indian couldnot match as MMRCA is coming after Su-30MKI.
How many J-10s are in service? I’ve heard only 200-ish.
Golddust:
I’ve heard that J-10B is still delayed and PLAAF will continue to get J-10As instead.
thobbesFunny, on how 3 out of 4 of the Typhoon Partners are going to purchase F-35’s. While the former will be ending production!
Only 2 out of 4 are confirmed.
I don’t think you realise how dire the Spanish economy is and how big those separatist calls in Catalonia are. Imagine the USA in 1930s with 20% of the population itching to become their own country.
Did I add that Tranche 1 Typhoons are already going to be retired……..
F-35 will be a better jet than Eurofighter in terms of multi-role capability and obviusly stealth performance.
That doesn’t mean Canada needs that.
Remember the Canadians didn’t even buy the best jets available in the 1960s-1980s when there was a high risk of war against USSR.
Instead of F-4 Phantoms, they brought CF-5s and more CF-101s. And instead of F-15s they brought F/A-18s.
Every other NATO country did pretty much the same – F-5A/B with no radar was selling like hotcakes to Netherlands, Norway, Spain, Turkey and Greece as opposed to F-4s. They generally brought F-16s instead of F-15s. Hell Italians were still flying F-104s as their only fighter up to 2004!
Even the Germans used Alpha Jets in light strike role as replacement for G91 and retained F-4 Phantom for air defence right up to June 2013. And the Italians were also flying those G91s up to the 1990s and then replaced them with AMX.
So why do these countries need top of the line stealth jets in an era where main potential opponents still fly the same MiG-21s and -23s that have proven to be useless since 1982 when the IDF/AF was kicking Syrian butt like it was going out of fashion?
And why do you need top of the line stealth fighters to battle insurgents whose main air defence is the WWII vintage DShK 12.7mm heavy machine gun and 1960s vintage RPG-7?
thobbesLOL I am sure that many in Great Britain in 1938 said the same thing about the Spitfire. When they already had the Hawker Hurricane and Gloster Gladiator!:highly_amused:
That’s not a good comparison as in this context, Pak Fa (FGFA) is the equivalent of a P-51D Mustang in 1938!
My own idea for IAF F-35 acquisition is Jaguar/MiG-27 replacement and in particular as a D+0 striker with air superiority mission flown by Pak Fa.
It’d also be a far better addition to Indian Navy than the Tejas Mk 2 which seems to add nothing that the MiG-29K can’t do already.
thobbesThis assumes Russians aren’t lobbing cruise or conventional ballistic missiles on Canadian airfields and that their EW guys aren’t jamming the crap out of Canadian early warning defences.
And what’s this about submarine launched PAK FAs? Has someone been smoking crack? Do people think it’s really plausible to be launching a jet the size of a small airliner from a submarine.
thobbesACIG sez other than their F-14s, their next best aircraft are Iraqi Mirage F-1s. particularly due to its ECM suite it came with.
apparently the Iranians used them against Pakistani druggies!!
can FC-1 stop F-1s?
Given those F1s have 1980s ECM suites, they probably aren’t too much of a problem.
Also I’m not sure if they were delivered with A2A missiles. Hence their deployment on Eastern border and used in counter narcotics ops as opposed to the more strategically important Western side of the country.
thobbeswhat does it all mean?
It shows how little Eastern Europe has invested in their airforces. Bare in mind that up to 1991 fighter numbers per airforce were often 300+ and are now down to about 12-14 and for many nothing at all.
Poland is the exception.
Also because Poland focused indigenous manufacture on cheap and practical aircraft (W3 helos, M28 light transports (also used by USAF SOCOM as C-145) and basic trainers (PZL 130 Orlik), they’ve managed to maintain a viable aerospace industry unlike Czech Republic and Romania whose main indigenous efforts focused on jet trainers.
It also means they’ve managed to maintain capability with locally produced and thus cheaper aircraft.
It’s actually a good lesson for a lot of countries out there pumping billions into indigenous fighters and still importing basic aircraft (as well as fighters).
but still prefers Russki helicopters?
Czech and Croat Russian helos were provided as freebies for debt repayment. Hungary recently received a couple of freebie Mi-8S from Finland.
Poland is expected to go for Western for Mi-8 replacement.
However the Mi-8/-17 does offer good capability and ruggedness.
Mig-29s and Mig-23s are not efficient peace time planes
Many Eastern European MiG-29s were provided free of charge as debt repayment (Hungarian (retired) and Slovak) or as swaps (some Polish) or basically free (half of Poland’s).
European helicopter alternatives generally over engineered.
Depends. You can still get cheaper US designed Italian built AB-412s but they don’t offer capability of a Mi-8/17. Puma variants are still a good buy as well and Bulgaria has acquired some whilst Romania licence produced them in past.
By the way I’ve not included Serbia or Belarus as they’ve not aligned with NATO.
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