Considering the Argentinians take such unilateral action against British territory… (1982 it was UK vs argentina… now, with the sovereignty of the falklands 100% british, as self determined by the islanders), count Australia in with 2 LHD’s and 3 Hobart Class, 3 Adelaide class boats and 4 ANZAC class…. 4 – 5 battalions and 30+ helos to add to the British fleet…
Australia won’t get involved especially with such a sizeable portion of our military.
We didn’t get involved in 1982.
Australians tend to shy away from ops further than Suez – we didn’t even contribute to Libya despite our foreign minister at the time (a certain Mr Rudd) barking very loudly about the need for a No-Fly zone.
Also Hobart class replaces Adelaide class.
Let’s be honest with the UN saying that people have a right to self determination there would actually be a coalition next time round. UK, French and USN carriers would be involved, the Argentinians would be absolutely screwed!!!
US certainly wouldn’t be directly involved though would support with intelligence etc. Current US stance on Falklands is completely neutral as Argentina is one of their allies too.
It’s a British territory and unless they invoke Article 5, NATO’s going to stay out of it.
I didn’t say modify the constitution. Read it again: “wants to revise the interpretation of the constitution “. Not the same thing, & it’s been done several times already, with smaller majorities than Abe now has
Even a reinterpreting of such a critical component as Article 9 is a major development and probably won’t get through.
Tinkering around the edges to allow humanitarian deployments is a whole different kettle of fish to allowing preemptive strikes against potential hostile threats.
Morocco has already upgraded its F-5Es. Finished about 10 years ago.
Kenya falls into the “can’t afford a serious upgrade” category.
Tunisia is only interested in air policing. I doubt it’ll bother with anything more than a modest modernisation (if that) to keep them flying until the airframes wear out.Iran seems to be doing an upgrade solely because it can’t buy on the open market. It’s also upgrading its remaining F-4Es with Chinese equipment, & building a reverse-engineered F-5E derivative, for the same reason.
Agreed.
Thanks for update on Saudi Arabia, Morocco and Taiwan. I knew Taiwan was using them as LIFT but thought the numbers were higher (70 a/c).
In Thailand, they have retained upgraded F-5Ts (I think under 30 in service).
I thought Switzerland was going to lease JAS-39C/D pending arrival of JAS-39E/F?
With regards to Turkey, F-5-2000 is being retired this year (see Turkish AF thread). T-38s is technically the replacement in this role (even though they already owned the aircraft).
As for Venezuela, these are early 1970s vintage CF-5/NF-5s based on Freedom Fighter. I doubt they will upgrade them.
Refurbishment, perhaps, & replacement of obsolete electronics for which spares can no longer be obtained. The sort of major upgrade mooted at the start of this discussion does not look feasible. I do not expect to see any AESA radars.
I totally agree here. The same will happen for MiG-21 users that retain them.
Running aground some merchant ships is even more riskier and requires even more skill than a normal amphibious landing. Landing craft are built for shallow draftoperations whereas an Atlantic Ocean capable merchant ship has a very deep draft hence they run aground before they get to the coast.
Being stranded several hundred metres from shore is risky, especially if the weather turns to crap (and that’s possible with Falklands). But guess Argenitinians can control weather and have xray ESP that allows them to know exactly where the best landing grounds are.
Do JF-17s have the ability to lock onto a ship 180-300 nm away(supposed range of C802 and C803).
Oh and what are the Eurofighters doing?
Remember until your Argentinian super men storm Mount Pleasant and overwhelm the British contingent, the Argies don’t have air superiority and a JF-17 has nothing on a Eurofighter especially if it’s load out is AShMs.
If I assume British are comatose mentally handicapped nitwits and Argentinians are super men (maybe result of some sort of post WWII Nazi breeding program), then your plan is plausible. :eagerness:
The bigger issue is countries that can’t afford $30 million per plane.
In most cases, they’ll overhaul their F-5s and maybe upgrade some limited items (usually communications) and keep them flying as long as they can. These sort of “upgrades” are cheap. Some MiG-21 operators will do this as well.
In fact they’re already doing this now. And when your flight hours are limited, then you usually have a bit of air frame life left.
Kenya will probably be an example of this.
Watch while RN float beyond strike range ?
Why would RN be outside of strike range?
Since when are power plants classified as military targets ?
sounds like you are suggesting terror bombing.
Powerplants are strategic targets and the US and Co bombed them both in 1991 and 1999 as well as water processing infrastructure.
I think you meant to say the floating targets are right between two hostile air bases loaded with anti ship missiles,
with no air cover at that.
Or did UK already have operational F-35B & AEW ?
Errmm Argentina doesn’t have modern operational stand off capability.
The truth is that ships are floating target practice against stand-off attacks if they have no air cover.
Stand-off attacks from what? Super Etendards with Exocet? Or some JF-17s. AWDs are designed to ping planes out of the sky. And Argies aren’t going to be operating anything with truely long range missiles.
At that time at night, anchored at the pier.
Huh?
The ships and submarines don’t just deploy during the day. Submarines actually seldom dock when on patrol – it kind of limits their usefulness.
Can the transponder be switched off, or malfunction
Sure, except you have to report why it’s off.
Also 2-3 ships going off line sounds suspicious especially if they’re heading towards Falklands.
But then you’re assuming the Brits are useless idiots who don’t post sentries, dock their submarine over night and don’t bother with any rudimentary intelligence of potential enemies with a stated axe to grind.
Yes, or at least the guy in the light tower, if any, perhaps.
Whether he draw the conclusion that an invasion is imminent is open for debate,
as was the case at pearl harbor
Pearl Harbour is bad example – they assumed the aircraft were theirs and there are conspiracy theories the Americans let them through.
In an case Pacific was huge, warships are faster than merchant ships, 1941 vintage radars/surveillance was not so great at detecting anything.
Effective range 8,140 m (8,900 yd) with standard projectile
12,850 m (14,050 yd) with rocket projectile
Erm that’s a mortar, not a grenade launcher.
Tell me more about the operational F-35B inventory in UK, this is both news and highly interesting.
Tell me more about:
– Argentine stand off Anti-Ship capability
– Argentine covert ops
– Argentine military readiness
– Argentine amphibious capability
– How much more clever Argies are than Brits.
Oh and also with regards to running aground ships – Falklands aren’t nice pretty beaches. They’re quite treacherous:
![]()
Performing an amphibious landing requires good planning and reconaissance. You need to have good knowledge about tides, coastal obstacles, and even such mundane things as soil/earth composition of landing beach.
Americans got stung at Tarawa in WWII when they failed to take into account tides and sandbars.
Overlord involved extensive reconaissance including landing geologists onto the landing grounds at night to collect soil samples.
And using old maps doesn’t help because soil erosion changes things routinely.
So you could run your merchant ships aground hundreds of metres away from land which would be risky and could result in extremely heavy casualties.
Oh and a militarily resurgent Japan who reserves rights to pre-emptive military action is bad news for Asia Pacific. It actually destablises the region.
Japan’s objective might be to counter China, but in the process it will also create problems for smaller players ala South Korea, the Philippines or SE Asian countries who still remember Japanese brutality.
And just because PRC might be the main player, doesn’t mean the Japanese won’t be willing to intervene in other countries if they see it in their national interests.
It’s not so much the people but the Governments that run the Country. Hitler was the worst in the history of the world. Yet, as a whole the Germans are Good and Descent People. The same could be said about Japan and many other countries.
People don’t think that way. They make their enemy the people – Croats talk about the Serbs as their enemy in 1991-95 not the Serbian government or the Serbian breakaway province government.
Australians still talk about the “Japs” as their enemies in WWII and mention how barbaric they were.
They don’t say “Tojo’s government was barbaric.”
Because in the end whilst Hitler and Tojo and Stalin are evil, they do not physically commit the atrocities themselves. Normal people do that and very often of their own accord either for personal gain, for pleasure or to be seen to be committed to the system.
As for Japanese election results, Abe did not win upper house majority (115 out of 242 seats):
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Japan/JAP-01-290713.html
Oh and Abe’s changes don’t bode well for Asian alliances as they include such things as rights to pre-emptive strikes, allowing more censorship, removal of recognition of universality of human rights, limiting freedom of speech, giving more power to Prime Minister instead of Diet (parliament) and making it easier for further such changes to constitutions.
http://japandailypress.com/japan-might-seek-provision-to-allow-pre-emptive-strikes-2532876/
http://japanfocus.org/-Lawrence-Repeta/3969
South Koreans etc won’t like this – it reeks of progress back towards Japanese militarism (especially preemptive strikes and renounciation of universality of human rights). In fact in the preemptive strike article it already mentions South Korean apprehension at Japanese constitutional change.
And it doesn’t help Abe has in the past rejected Murayama Statement which is a formal apology for actions in WWII.
They wont ever match RN, so skip navy altogether, they wont take part in any, it will be modified merchant ships.
Yes, but what happens after British sends RN task force?
You’ll have a Argentinian garrison without supplies. It won’t be a problem for Brits to land a force on there to retake the island.
Oh and the Brits might opt for cruise missile strikes against strategic military targets in Argentina (includes things such as power plants) – would the Argie population tolerate having their country smacked about for some rocks in the Atlantic?
They will need fighters with stand-off anti ship missiles, and a couple of planes with surface search radar.
A dozen fighters is needed in any case, as their junk is rusting, and wont cause alarm.
All hardware, fuel in abundance, would be shipped in a day after attack, using merchant ships,
alternatively, after having looked at the near abandoned harbor, a few dozen troops can assault the mare harbor in advance,
before the merchant ships unload at the pier.
You still completely disregard the presence of RN, British Army troops in Falklands (who I assume would be smart enough to maintain some sort of security system such as maybe sentries) as well as completely disregarding British intelligence services and their ability to discern anything about Argentina’s military plans.
Troops can be flown in and back as needed.
You mean blasted out of the sky by whatever AWD or even frigate is operating there as well as target practice for F-35Bs operating off CV’s.
I believe running aground 2-3 merchant ships in late night is an easy task,
What’s the Royal Navy’s frigate and submarine doing?
You realise merchant ships require to have a transponder operational (only exception is when in pirate infested wars near Somalia).
If 2-3 merchant ships ships turn their transponders off then that’ll alert the Brits.
Hell 2-3 ships heading for Falklands without any reason will alert the Brits.
they will also have artillery support in the form of heavy grenade launchers on the run-aground merchant ships.
What like 25mm – 40mm grenade launcher- all with a range of about 1,500 metres? How far aground do you expect these ships to get?
I think JF-17 is a good investment.
A nice little pedestrian fighter for F-35s or Darings to use for target practice.
It’s getting beyond Clancy or even Clive Cussler. The scenario is probably more appropriate for that dreadful Matthew Reilly who wrote such awful crap as Area 7.
I don’t see how Argentina can pull off a surprise at all.
1. Their political establishment constantly rants on about Falklands. Of course this makes the Brits pay attention to what they’re doing.
2. Their military has extremely poor readiness and their Navy and Air Force have near zero readiness. Any improvements to readiness especially for amphibious/paradrop/insertions will mean the British ears perk up.
3. Also infiltrating a batallion and even successfully besieging Mt Pleasant won’t help. It’ll be like 1982 where they hold the island but have no naval or air support (remember the navy and air force are largely non-operable and even more lacking in capability than they were in 1982.
So who’ going to stop British naval flotilla when it arrives?
The Argies would also struggle reinforcing the island, especially with a RN attack submarine and destroyer/frigate out on the prowl.
4. Also infiltrating an island in the middle of the Atlantic is not an easy thing to accomplish, especially with a batallion of men. Taking out what is essentially a fortress is even harder, especially without air or artillery support or without ability to airdrop into it.
The whole scenario is too Tom Clancy.
A sub aint gonna start sink merchant shipping on a hunch
It will if MI6 has done their job, even if the intel came courtesy of CIA or any other intelligence service the Brits have links with.
Most likely a frigate/destroyer will be sent on an intercept course though.
I agree with Bager1968 that there’s too many assumptions the Brits would be oblivious to any Argentine buildup or intentions. This is not 1982 after all.
Turkey does licence produce F-16 but I don’t think it’s a 100% local content. Can anyone comment on local content percentage?
Also does Turkey produce any of the avionics?
No idea what’s settled on TF-X. It’s touted as 5th generation so one assumes stealth fighter. JAS-39E/F is not a fifth generation fighter.
To be honest, I think loading up on F-35A would be the way to go
Don’t know if Turkey is cheap enough in the area of professionals and skilled labour to offset lack of experience and knowhow. According to OECD Average income is about USD$13,000 p.a but an engineer or skilled worker would attract a much higher salary
It is also likely they will need to import project managers and specialists from elsewhere at least in an initial capacity, thus increasing costs.
There’s also a lot more sunk infrastructure costs – whereas France and UK already have infrastructure such as production lines. tooling, wind tunnels, research facilities, software and relevant computers, etc etc. Turkey is starting afresh.
And they’re not even designing anything intermediate ala a jet trainer – they’re diving straight into 5th generation stealth MRCA land. Even the USA has struggled here with the the F-22 and F-35.
India has struggled with 4th gen Tejas and they’ve had plenty of experience in designing aircraft and bringing them to some sort of production (HF-24 jet fighter, HT-2, HPT-32, HJT-16).
Also OTS purchases of Airbus aircraft (e.g. C-295, humming along steadily), & other OTS purchases in general. Some upgrade programmes also run fairly smoothly, e.g. the Airbus upgrade of Spanish & Brazilian P-3s: not flawless, but not bad. IIRC the upgrade of USCG (sort of military) C-130s with Seaspray 7500E radars also went pretty well.
C-130J & C-17 development did not go well at all. Late, over budget, technical problems . . . . recent OTS buyers benefit from coming in after that’s all been sorted out. It’ll be the same for A400M soon.
I was referring to Indian procurement only.
Apparently the Indian AFs is also happy with PC-7 OTS procurement and is playing hardball to keep HAL out of the loop with their HTT40.
I think most countries should buy OTS. I’m not a big fan of subsidised defence industries whose main purpose seems to be pretending to have indigenous capability – Australia has been burned so many times with this and it has cost the tax payer billions e.g. from memory it took 3 times the manpower hours to licence assemble S-70 Blackhawks in Australia than have it done in America and ship them here. That’s a lot of tax payer dollars flushed down the drain. Then there were issues with Collins class subs, SH-2 Seasprites etc.
Hence my reference to founding fathers of economics: Ricardo and Smith – they emphasised countries focusing on competitive advantage and not the innefficient “we do everything” method so beloved by nationalists and communists alike.