Steve TouchdownI posted the following to my own group on July 15th. The only significant update that has surfaced since then has been the announcement that an unmanned version of the Little Bird is due to fly shortly……
Subject: [Touchdown-News] INFO: MDHI-Boeing Offer MH-6 for US Army’s ARH Programme
MDHI and Boeing offer Little Bird
MD Helicopters (MDHI) and Boeing have sealed a formal arrangement to jointly offer the MH-6 Little Bird for a major US Army programme to replace the service’s Bell OH-58 Kiowa Warrior scout helicopters, Boeing has confirmed.
Army leaders are understood to favour the MH-6 Mission Enhanced Little Bird, already in development for the US Special Operations Command, for the light armed reconnaissance helicopter (LARH) programme. Competition is expected from Bell as well as Europe’s AgustaWestland and Eurocopter.
MDHI acquired the H-6 (MD 530) production line in Mesa, Arizona from Boeing in the late 1990s, but needed a larger partner to compete for the proposed LARH order for 368 aircraft for delivery after 2007. The LARH programme was established using some of the $14.6 billion freed by the army’s decision to cancel the Sikorsky/Boeing RAH-66 Comanche in February.
However, the US Senate and House have voted to cut funds for the LARH effort in the fiscal year 2005 budget, criticising the project as premature until more details are disclosed.
Source: Flight International via Hoover’s (13th July, 2004)
———
To explain the rationale behind this proposal, and give some more background information, I can add the following which I hope will be of interest to any other Army Aviation nuts.
From official sources, this is an explanation and overview of the planned requirement for 368 helicopters under the ARH programme:
“On February 23rd, 2004, the U.S. Army announced the termination of the Comanche Helicopter Program. As a result, the Army will restructure aviation organizations to reflect current and anticipated needs.
Specifically, the Army plans to procure 368 new Armed Reconnaissance Helicopters during the time period of FY05-FY11. The ARH will conduct armed reconnaissance to fight for actionable combat information to enable joint/combined air-ground maneuver execution of mobile strike, close combat and vertical maneuver operations across the full-spectrum of military operations.
The ARH provides precision-capability through lethal organic fires, dynamic employment of joint networked fires and responsive target acquisition/identification for full-spectrum, day and night operations; is rapidly deployable for global employment against a distributive, highly adaptive threat on an asymmetrical battlefield employing conventional and unconventional methods; and enables the air-ground maneuver commander to ‘see-understand-act first’ with a warfighter-in-the-loop to provide proactive decision making, assure critical reaction time and maneuver space and set the conditions for the joint/combined air-ground maneuver team to ‘finish decisively’.
Planned Integration/Qualification – 3rd quarter FY 2005
Planned Production Commencement – FY 2006
Planned Quantitites – Support First Unit Equipped (FUE) of 30 aircraft as soon as possible. Maximum production rate of 90 aircraft per year.”
Proposals, such as that made by the MDHI-Boeing team with the MH-6, are required by 13th August, 2004.
As the Flight International piece mentions, funds for the ARH (and also the LUH – Light Utility Helicopter) programme have not been agreed to thus far. The following requirements have been made of the Army before any further discussion with regard to fiscal appropriations can be dealt with:
ARMY AVIATION MODERNIZATION PLAN:
(1) Not later than March 1st, 2005, the Secretary of the Army shall submit to the congressional defense committees an updated modernization plan for Army aviation.
(2) The updated Army aviation modernization plan shall contain, at a minimum, the following matters:
(a) The analysis on which the plan is based.
(b) A discussion of the Secretary’s decision to terminate the Comanche helicopter program and to restructure the aviation force of the Army.
(c) The actions taken or to be taken to accelerate the procurement and development of aircraft survivability equipment for Army aircraft, together with a detailed list of aircraft survivability equipment that specifies such equipment by platform and by the related programmatic funding for procurement.
(d) A discussion of the conversion of Apache helicopters to block III configuration, including the rationale for converting only 501 Apache helicopters to that configuration and the costs associated with a conversion of all Apache helicopters to the block III configuration.
(e) A discussion of the procurement of light armed reconnaissance helicopters, including the rationale for the requirement for light armed reconnaissance helicopters and a discussion of the costs associated with upgrading the light armed reconnaissance helicopter to meet Army requirements.
(f) The rationale for the Army’s requirement for light utility helicopters, together with a summary and copy of the analysis of the alternative means for meeting such requirement that the Secretary considered in the determination to procure light utility helicopters, including, at a minimum, the analysis of the alternative of using light armed reconnaissance helicopters and UH-60 Black Hawk helicopters instead of light utility helicopters to meet such requirement.
(g) The rationale for the procurement of cargo fixed-wing aircraft.
(h) The rationale for the initiation of a joint multi-role helicopter program.
(i) A description of the operational employment of the Army’s restructured aviation force.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownGreat Job, PII!
You will get an honourable mention in the AFM Forum dispatches for a job well done! 🙂
Many thanks for the Apache serials: it confirms what I thought, as all four are ex-Florida Army National Guard Machines from the old 1-111th.
The OH-58D should be 94-00064. I’m pretty sure that’s from O or P Troop of the 4/278th ACR from Alcoa, TN (or Knoxville McGhee-Tyson Airport, if One prefers) and it should be Q Troop 4/278th who will be getting the OH-58 Deltas at Tupelo next year.
Which leads me onto a question you may or may not be able to answer, PII. Do you have any idea, at all, when the MS Guard OH-58D unit left Tupelo? The whole of the Guard’s aviation units are in the middle of some fairly major changes at the minute, but I had no idea that Tupelo had passed their OH-58Ds on! As you’ll know, a couple of the unit’s pilots were involved in the raid that killed Sadam’s sons…and that was only a year ago.
Glad you had a good time during your mission and am looking forward to seeing the photos when you get them back and get a chance to post them here.
Thanks again, PII, for a job well done! 😀
Steve ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownAt least 9 C-130B/Es are still in service – serials are 4119, 3689, 4282, 3702, 3751, 3766, 3536, 4148 and 4153 and one L.100-20 nr, 4144.
Usman,
I 100% agree on the serials you’ve posted: those are the ten Hercs that weren’t lost in accidents, and I have no qualms about that whatsoever.
However, if the operational status of the surviving ten is 100%, then I am extremely impressed. That surpasses even RAF and USAF standards, even of C-130H and C-130J models.
To explain my point, I know for a fact that, just for example, both Greece and Romania (the latter especially) have had severe problems with C-130B serviceability and availability. This in spite of the fact that the Romanian Hercs were completely overhauled not long before they were delivered. Most C-130Bs in South American service suffer the same problems: Bolivia and Ecuador being two from recent reports that spring to mind.
Just as an aside, three of the serials in that list of ten haven’t been seen/reported since 1996, 1997 and 1998, respectively. Call me a cynic but, once an aircraft as large as a C-130 “vanishes” for 8 years I tend to get a little suspicious as to its fate/status.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownThanks, PAF Fan.
I had already seen that article from Flight Int’l, but it is fairly vague, includes a couple of minor errors and, considering the publication date, doesn’t actually include any “news” as such. Only the mention of Enstrom and Scweizer in the last paragraph saved it from looking like it was written 2 or 3 months ago.
Here’s why I am dubious about the Bell 407 deal still being a “goer”:
In September of last year, Congress signed off on a plan to sell Bell 407 helicopters to Pakistan.
The Pentagon and State Department notified Congress that Pakistan had requested to buy as many as 40 of the Bell 407 helicopter and related equipment in a sale that might have been worth as much as $97 million.
However, the government in Islamabad ultimately changed its mind and decided it didn’t want to buy the 407s. Over the last year, U.S. military officials have been working with their Pakistani counterparts to determine which helicopters were best suited for the military’s needs, the U.S. official said.
That comes from Defense Daily, dated 21st April 2004. Now, unless I’m mistaken, this was from the same story that “broke” the news of the Bell 412EP deal. The significance of that is in their accuracy: they got that spot-on, as was proven by later releases from Bell Textron.
Here’s what the piece stated back in April:
The United States government is set to approve the sale of a range of new military equipment to the Pakistani military, including 26 utility helicopters, according to a senior Pentagon official.
The arms package is aimed at bolstering Pakistan’s effort to fight Al Qaeda forces along the Afghan border. According to the official, the United States is planning to provide Pakistan with helicopters, night vision devices, and tactical radios. The potential sale is currently awaiting final approval and “we could see some things as early as the next 30 days,” the official told Defense Daily.
The most significant part of the order will be for 26 Bell Helicopter Textron 412 helicopters, sold as part of a unique lease deal. Using a lease rather a traditional sale was the most efficient way to get Pakistan the helicopters.
The other significance of this report is the mention of their planned role: it’s spoken of in exactly the same terms as was the original requirement for the 40 Bell 407 helicopters:
Congress was notified of two pending majors arms sales to Pakistan potentially worth more than $200 million. The six air traffic control radars and 40 Bell 407 helicopters are meant to enhance Pakistan’s ability to secure its border with Afghanistan.
You’ll find that quote, which is taken from a Congressional Research Service paper on US-Pakistan relations, in several places.
Now, my humble opinion suggests that 66 brand-new helicopters for policing the border would be something of an overkill. Also, why procure two different types of chopper and all the problems associated with that aspect? There has also never been a confirmation from Bell Textron of the sale. Nor does it appear that Bell 407s are being built at any speed greater than normal.
I’m not party to any “inside knowledge” on this deal whatsoever but, if I had to put money, on it I would bet that the Bell 407 deal was killed off when the decision to go for the Bell 412EPs was taken.
Well, there’s the evidence…what does anybody else think?
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownHas anyone got concrete confirmation that the 40 Bell 407s are still expected to be delivered to Pakistan?
The only “reputable” written source I’ve seen on this subject recently suggested that the 26 Bell 412EP choppers were procured instead as they were considered more suitable for requirements.
I won’t bore you with the details, but it quickly became obvious that a large order for the 412EPs was being filled…but that same evidence certainly isn’t apparent for the 40 Bell 407s so far.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownPakistan’s nuclear assets are guarded by air capping done by F-16s but due to non-availability of spares Pakistan had to cut down flying hours of its F-16s.
Interesting.
Given the contents of the rest of that item, what on Earth is interesting about that!?
Six Apaches “as part of the $73 million” aid?? You’d be able to afford about 2 and 1/4 AH-64D Apache Longbows for that price!
“it is believed they will be either AH-64 or AH-64D”….so what else COULD they be then?! AH-64GTi with Twin Turbos maybe?
As US Agent indicates above, the chances of ANY sort of Apache ending-up with the PA is rather more than slim! The US Army are in need of every single last Apache they can muster.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownSome fanciful figures being bandied-around on this thread, methinks! 😀
Unless I’m much mistaken, the PAF have received 18 C-130B/H model Hercs, and a further two “civilian” L-100 variants (acquired for PIA, but used in government service too).
Of these twenty aircraft I understood that 10 have been lost in accidents (between 1966 and 1998). There are at least another two or three of the C-130B models whose current status must be “dubious”, to say the least. A couple haven’t been reported since 1997.
Even the recent Jang article mentioned that the delivery of the six ex-RAAF C-130E Hercs the PAF are due to receive will “virtually double the existing fleet”.
I wouldn’t be at all surprised if, as of today, there are only 6 or 7 operational Hercs in PAF service.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownHi Merlin,
I found the following that relates to the sad incident:
ALAN WILDER NEAR DEATH
Depeche Mode’s Alan Wilder narrowly escaped death when an RAF Tornado plane crashed into a hillside near Lochearhead, Perthshire, in Scotland on September 1 , killing the two airmen on board. Wilder was showered with debris which scattered across the A85 trunk road after the plane crashed some 200 yards away from his open-topped car. The impact left a 20-yard crater near the road. Wilder has now issued a statement giving his account of the tragedy, as follows:
“As I approached a sharp bend in the road, the sound of the Tornado appeared behind me, and as I looked up, the underside of the aircraft was no more than 50 Feet above me. To my astonishment, the plane had crashed beside the road into the glen about 200 yards ahead. Apparently it had been travelling at approximately 400 miles per hour. As I swerved off the road into a Farm track, I heard the sound of the impact and witnessed an enormous explosion from which the smoke and debris almost engulfed me. Another witness ran to call the police as I drove around the bend towards the site. At the same time, particles of carbon etc, began to rain down on to the open top car. Beyond the bend, parts of the dead airmens bodies were clearly visible in the road, a parachute, burning shrapnell and a strong, sweet smell of fuel. After the police arrived, I decided to leave the scene to avoid delay as many cars had arrived, and there was nothing further to do. It was only at this point I realised what an incredible escape I’d had. I would surely have been killed or, worst, severly maimed, had I been 10 seconds further into my journey. The most incredible thing is the one in a billion chance of that happening and me being there at that particular time given all the circumstances.”
The MOD later named the dead airmen as 33-year-old navigator Patrick Harrison and Pilot Flight Lieutenant Peter Mosley, 31. They had been on a routine training Flight From RAF Marham in Norfolk when the accident happened.
It must have been quite some time later that we passed the spot en route to Gairloch as we had stopped for an evening meal in Lochearnhead itself. When we drove along the A85 there were plenty of people still at the site (RAF, Army and Police), many yards of “incident tape” and a Queen Mary low-loader that had just arrived by the looks of it.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownHi Chaps,
I certainly remember ZG708 going down very vividly. We were on holiday at the time in Gairloch and had visited Leuchars that day so drove back past the crash site. I had mates on 12, 13 & 617 Squadrons at the time and wasn’t able to find out if any of them had been involved until I got back home the following weekend.
The crew aboard ZG708 that were so sadly lost were Flt. Lt. Patrick Harrison (33) and Flt. Lt. Peter Mosley (31).
I’m pretty sure this must have been the incident that you’re referring to, Merlin, as there is indeed a memorial in Glen Ogle to the aircrew, pictured below.
Hope this helps in some way.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownTurkish Terminators
Hmmm…off the top of my head and without checking references, I’m pretty sure that the only Turkish 2020 Terminators that have been seen in the “rest of Europe” were the pair at RIAT in 2003 and the four at Neuburg the same summer for “Clean Hunter”. Unless anyone else can think of others?
Anyway, here’s some shots you probably won’t have seen before…’cos I just scanned ’em from the negatives! 😀
Apologies for the lack of variety amongst the shots, but this was the only chance I got to ‘graph them as we were en route to Zeltweg, Austria by road.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownSo…the choices are…we can all gnash and wail over figures “revealed” in a newspaper or we get off our lazy ar$es and actually try to find out what lies behind the stats.
The 20 “fighters” referred to:
“This covers both the number of deployable aircraft and the aircraft held at readiness for the QRA air defence of the UK task, the number of the latter being unchanged”.
20 = 16 deployed and 4 to stand UK QRA.
The 64 “bombers” referred to:
“This is the number of deployable Force Elements”.
“The fast jet numbers reflect aircraft required at readiness. The actual numbers of aircraft are driven by peacetime training and maintenance requirements. Aircrew numbers are driven by rotation”.
In plain English, the figures don’t even include OCUs, OEUs or aircraft in maintenance or reserve.
Classic opening line in the article:
The Government is secretly planning a massive round of further defence cuts – even greater than those announced last week, an Evening Standard investigation has found.
Their “investigation” being to download and read the Acrobat PDF from the MoD site which went on-line on 21st July. 😮
By the way, any talk of JSF cancellation is completely barmy: the two CVFs aren’t even factored-in to the figures used for the “news” piece. The white paper’s brief only extends to 2008.
Ciao, ciao!
Steve ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownCount whatever you like, PILOTGHT, I was using figures from the Armee de Terre’s own web-site and not yours
http://www.defense.gouv.fr/terre/hf/effectifs/index.html
The page is titled “Les Soldats: Effectifs” so I guess there’s no mistake in what they’re referring to.
Sure, your Armed Forces are a bloated, fat, over-manned bureaucracy. But then is that any surprise when your whole nation-state is based along those lines? French bureaucratic influence is why the EU has ended-up the same way.
When do you think the Defence Ministry in France is ever going to come around to addressing all of the massive re-equipment programmes for the Armee de l’Air that are desperately needed?
30 year-old Alpha Jets as LIFT for the Rafale! And you’re laughing at the RAF!? 😀
Steve TouchdownDoes anyone have the latest airband frequencies for this weekends show? If you wish to keep these private, then please PM me.
I am really after the Approach and Display frequencies.
Hi Buccs
these were posted to Touchdown-News on 4th July and I have no reason to doubt there accuracy so hope they help:
Director 130.050
Approach 134.350
Radar 122.500 (usually ground)
Tower 130.675
Ground 123.050
Have a great weekend: the weather looks set fair!
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownIt’s always a good laugh to see Monsieur PILOTGHT in complete denial of historical facts 😀
I wonder what he will make of this list. Where do we think the Adl’A would be today without the incredibly generous assistance of the Americans during the 1950s and 60s? Here’s a list of aircraft supplied under MAP and MDAP to France…for which they didn’t pay a single centime. OSP = Overseas Production (ie these were built in France but fully-funded under MDAP: that’s why so many Mystere IVA were returned to USAF control at RAF Sculthorpe in the mid-1970s once they were replaced by Alpha Jets):
109 USAF AIRCRAFT TRAINER T-6
72 USAF AIRCRAFT TRAINER T-6
60 NAVY AIRCRAFT TRAINER T-6
49 USAF AIRCRAFT CARGO C-47
33 NAVY AIRCRAFT ASW P-2H P2V-7Y
62 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-84F
98 USAF AIRCRAFT TRAINER T-33A
68 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-100D
12 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-100F
83 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER RF-84F
20 NAVY AIRCRAFT CARGO TC-45J SNB
10 ARMY AIRCRAFT OBSERVATION O-1E
19 NAVY HELICOPTER UH-25
191 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-84G
60 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-86K
46 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-84E
1 USAF AIRCRAFT CARGO C-45
6 USAF AIRCRAFT TRAINER RT-33A
12 ARMY AIRCRAFT UTILITY U-7
185 USAF AIRCRAFT FTR OURAGAN (OSP)
25 USAF AIRCRAFT TRNR MORANE (OSP)
10 USAF AIRCRAFT TRNR SIPA (OSP)
12 NAVY AIRCRAFT PATROL PB-4Y
163 NAVY AIRCRAFT FTR F4U CORSAIR
352 ARMY AIRCRAFT OBSERVATION L-18
31 NAVY AIRCRAFT PATROL P-2F
6 NAVY AIRCRAFT PATROL PV2
25 NAVY AIRCRAFT CARGO UC-45
12 NAVY AIRCRAFT UTILITY JRF
173 NAVY AIRCRAFT PATROL TBM
110 NAVY AIRCRAFT BOMBER SB-2C
139 NAVY AIRCRAFT FTR F6F HELLCAT
10 NAVY AIRCRAFT PATROL PBM
225 USAF AIRCRAFT FTR MYSTERE (OSP)
51 USAF AIRCRAFT TRNR HARVARD (OSP)
150 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-84F
150 USAF AIRCRAFT FIGHTER F-84F
110 USAF AIRCRAFT FTR VAMPIRE (OSP)
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve Touchdownyes agree!
but frenh troops will not move!
2003
Army ground troops= 167 865 troops
Marine Nationale “La Royale” = 52 557 marins
Armée de L’air, l’Adla = 69 300 troops
total 289 722 active troops! with 70 000 reservistes half actives!
*sigh* more bullsh1t-busting required…it’s too easy but I can’t be @rsed to be honest!
Au 1er janvier 2003, les effectifs de l’armée de Terre sont environ les suivants :
* *132 400 militaires d’active:
* *15 500 officiers de carrière et sous contrat
* *48 000 sous-officiers de carrière et sous contrat
* *68 900 militaires du rang sous contrat
* *65 500 Engagés volontaires de l’armée de terre (EVAT)
* *3400 Volontaires de l’armée de terre (VDAT)
* *11 300 réservistes
* *29 500 personnels civils
* *1200 fonctionnaires de catégorie A
* *3900 fonctionnaires de catégorie B
* *10 600 fonctionnaires de catégorie C
* *12 800 ouvriers
So the RAF has 108 Jaguars to be axed, eh? Who on Earth writes all this tosh?!
By the way, guess which country’s air force officials has been at Colt kicking the Jag tyres recently?
I guess Adl’A needs almost 70,000 personnel to fly the 600+ combat jets PILOTGHT imagines they have hidden away in caves in the Dordogne and Alsace-Lorraine 😀
For Papa-Lima:
I saw this posted recently, by a Swede, but am unable to verify it as the documents that the link leads to are all in Swedish:
Swedish Defence Decision 2004
Proposal (decision end of 2004).
Air Combat Function.
Unit development 2005-2014
3 Air Wings (1 Air Wing disband).
4 Squadrons JAS 39 (Reduction from today 2004 5 Squadrons)
JA 37 disband 2004
AJS 37-division inclusive SK 37 E disband 2005
Development with JAS 39 D backseat combat disband. Planned JAS 39 D
function as JAS 39 CJAS 39 E/F with AESA radar and
prototype JAS 39 G/H planned
JAS 39 A/B squadrons disband in period and transfer to development
of three JAS 39 C and one JAS 39 C/D squadrons.During period 2005-2014 decreased air combat function.
http://www.mil.se / Försvarsbeslut / Perspektivplan
Best regards
Steve ~ Touchdown-News
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