Steve TouchdownInteresting thought – but i don’t think Labour governments have such a tradition of stuffing deals down Saudi throats? The two Al Yamamamamamamamah deals, and the Lighting previously were all Tory-diplomacy, weren’t they (Thatcher for AY, Douglas-Home with the Lightning)?
Better to try and make something out of the F-5 replacement. Just think of what could happen if BAe promises to sell some of the retired Saudi F-5s 😀
No inside source, just pure speculation on my part, Art. The RSAF Tornado PDMs are done at Alsalam in Riyadh. Go figure 😉
The figure “96” quoted for the RSAF Rafale “deal” is interesting too: they had that many IDS.
Has been a couple of (financially and economically) interesting stories here over the past week in the wake of the Lib Dems pledging to scrap Tranche 3. Looking at the pure maths it looks more likely that T3 will happen than not to me. You already know my thoughts on the what the RAF actually require and it ain’t nowehere near 232….”wanna buy a used Typhoon, Mate? Very low mileage, one careful owner and it’s going for a song….”
Best regards
Steve
Steve TouchdownA-Y III?
Tornado IDS to GR.4 spec (inc Storm Shadow)
Typhoon
:diablo:
Steve TouchdownIt would make a nice Le Bourget-deal for this year…
It’s certainly not impossible.
There don’t appear to be any other follow-ups to the French-sourced FT.com item but, FWIW, this is a Google translation from French to English of a piece in Le Monde yesterday:
The French president and the prince could evoke significant contracts
has official visit in France of prince Abdallah Ben Abdel Aziz, regent of the kingdom of Saudi Arabia, revêt of the diplomatic and political, but so commercial aspects. During a working lunch at the head to head, Thursday April 14, French president Jacques Chirac and prince Abdallah were to evoke the opening of negotiations “of State in State” on a series of contracts of civil and military equipment, whose total amount could border 20 billion euros, according to concordant sources’ close to the two parts.
Prepared for several months in the greatest confidentiality by the French Company of export of advanced systems (Sofresa), expressly elected by the Elysium, these negotiations have related in particular to the monitoring of the borders of Saudi Arabia, object of a program called “Miksa”, for obtaining of which the group of French electronics Thales is activated since nearly fifteen years, like on the supply of Airbus, Rafale hunters, railway and hospital installation and treatment plants of water. The whole of these talks would lie within the scope of a “strategic partnership for the thirty years to come” , indicates a French source implied in the negotiations in progress.
Several draft contracts, drawn up in dialogue between Riyadh and Paris the day before the visit of the crown prince saoudien, evoke the ordering of a score of Airbus by the airline company saoudienne, to which could be added 10 to 15 apparatuses intended for the royal fleet, of which first “executive” A380 (of noncommercial use) which will leave the factories of the European consortium.
The Dassault group would see, for its part, solicited for the delivery of 48 Rafale, an option being considered for 48 additional planes. Tangible sign of the advance of the negociations: pilots saoudiens secretly flew, a few months ago, on the fighters French, which could replace the current military fleet, composed of F5 American and, especially, of English Tornado delivered since 1997 within the framework of contract Al-Yamamah. However the authorities saoudiennes recently indicated that this program would not be renewed beyond 2007, initially agreed closing date.
Would be also included in the discussions in progress the construction of a railway line between Djedda and Mecque, likely to fall to Alstom.
In the heart of the franco-saoudiens exchanges since 1994, the project Miksa of its true name: Saudi To border Guard Development Program Miksa (SBGDPM) , regarded as the alarming spectre of French strategic industry, represents with him only an envelope of 7 billion euros. The protocol fixing the perimeter of the contract envisages the supply of 225 radars connected to a satellite, the construction of 400 border posts and barracks likely to accomodate 20 000 men whose training would be also ensured by France , of planes and helicopters of recognition.
STRATEGIC TURNING
If it were to enter a “operational phase” to the favour of the visit of the prince, as internal sources with the French executive hope for it, this program would symbolize a strategic turning in the relations franco-saoudiennes, in a field closely related to the safety of the kingdom, since it organizes mainly the safeguarding of the borders with Iraq and Yemen.
The French industrialists gathered behind Thales had deplored, for one year, the American pressures which had led Saudi Arabia to consider the cutting of the market in several sections and its tender with an international invitation to tender. But this possibility would have been given up and the preference for a contract of State with France recently reaffirmed by Saoudiens. So much so that the signature of a new protocol, one twelve years duration, by the two heads of State, was considered by the French part, the day before the arrival of prince Abdallah.
This officialization would seal also the effective control of which in parallel secured Mr. Chirac and the monarch saoudien on this highly significant contract, a long time placed under the responsibility of the ministries for the interior of the two countries. The Elysium had indeed intervened brutally, in December 2003, to draw aside Nicolas Sarkozy, then, and its adviser Minister of Interior Department of the talks in progress with his counterpart of Riyadh, prince Naïef Ben Abdel Aziz. Since then, the diplomatic adviser of the president, Maurice Gourdault-Mountain, supervises the negociations led by the president of Sofresa, Michel Mazens. This last gave to the authorities saoudiennes, March 5, a letter of the current French Minister for the interior, Domenica de Villepin, in whom this one evokes “the deepening of – the co-operation” between the two countries with the favour of the Miksa contract. In return, Saoudiens reiterated, at the beginning of this month, their requirement of a negotiation “without intermediaries” , requiring the setting well off several businessmen which they suspectent to covet, for their account or that of others, of significant commissions on the contract.
Herve Gattegno
Steve TouchdownThanks, Martinez, that all makes perfect sense: I wasn’t aware of the finer details of Slovakia’s CFE obligations as I assumed they were well below the limits of combat aircraft that they were entitled to maintain.
Guys, have you ever seen (photos of) those fishbeds at Sliac?
Sure, I’ve seen quite a few photos of the withdrawn Fishbeds parked at Sliac. I’ve also seen them with my own eyes twice, but the first time was in 2000, by which point the ones I asked about had gone.
Have I seen photos of any Fishbeds in the process of being scrapped at Sliac? No, and hadn’t realised there was “photo evidence” until you mentioned it so, yeah, I’d love to see it if you have copies please 🙂
Speculating is a healthy aspect of this hobby! 😀 Do I actually believe that ex-Slovak Fishbeds finished-up in Korea? No, I actually don’t. Tom Cooper and I had some correspondence over these same MiGs before he published his African MiG book though, in 2002 if I remember correctly. At the time I had a feeling that some may have found their way to Angola, as with the Fitter sales.
As you are no doubt well-informed about the activities at LOT then you’ll also know about ex-Kyrgyz Mi-24 Hinds, although I’m sure many her may not:
http://hrw.org/reports/2004/slovakia0204/2.htm
Going back to an earlier posting in the thread, one thing I would really appreciate greatly are the bort numbers for the ex-Bulgarian L-29s if they are known. Thanks in advance!
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownAMARC had LTAs?
Not sure if they had more than one, and it doesn’t seem to appear in the latest inventory (though I’m not sure it was ever assigned a proper AMARC inventory number), but there was the gondola from an ZPG-3W there when I visited once upon a time: Bu No 144243.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownAlso, I don’t think the “Z” letter for Lighter-Than-Air has been formally discarded.
AFAIK it still appears in the official AMARC inventory doesn’t it?
Hadn’t realised you lurked around these parts, Andreas! 😉 Keep up your good work!
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownHmm… fully operational?
VF-31
VF-213
So the ten VF-32 Cats that I saw sat on the deck of the HST on Monday must have been an illusion! :diablo:
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownLets hope this is a start for some good research work 😀
Agreed!
I had no “fate” of these Slovak MiG-21 aircraft in my database 🙂
Best answer there could possibly be! Scramble’s database is always worth checking for their Slovak stuff as that is kept pretty much up-to-date.
Keep up the good work!
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownI hope not to dissapoint you guys, but you are making an elephant from a fly!… 😀
Many thanks for the information, Martinez, but I think you misunderstand the thought processes behind it if you think any of us might be “disappointed”! 😀
I’m happy to accept completely that all of those Fishbeds were scrapped at Sliac during 1998, but there are two things that still remain 100% illogical:
1) Why scrap the last-built/lowest hour Fishbeds when, during 1998, the Air Force were actively seeking buyers for them?!
2) The Slovak MoD made a statement themselves saying it would cost something like $3,000 per aircraft to scrap the surplus MiG-21 fleet, which was money they didn’t have: so why do it, what was the point?
Maybe I just don’t understand contradictory statements and illogical use of scarce funds when it serves no purpose except to a beer can manufacturer :diablo:
Sad as seeing any dissected fighter jet is, I’m sure I’m not the only one around here who would love to see the “photo evidence” if it’s available!
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
p.s. I guess that, yeah, I’m a little disappointed there are a few less Fishbeds in the World when I think of it that way, as they’re are definitely one of my favourite aircraft 😉
Steve TouchdownSo, someone has to check the c/n plates in the rear cockpit :diablo:
Rgd,
Jeroen Nijmeijer
Didn’t Aero assign the same c/ns to the aircraft though? i think that’s what Martinez means by his post too….
I didn’t realise that Aero “manipulated” their c/n series until a large number that I had seen at Vodochody that were due to go to Nigeria finished up with the Algerian AF and were all given “new” c/ns for the changed customer.
If there are two sets of c/ns for the Slovak L-39s that were rebuilt then, yes, it would be great to have them both.
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownSlovak Fishbeds
Great thread, Guys, and some really interesting info: thanks, Flex, Jeroen and Martinez.
Jeroen, what was the thought behind the list of Fishbeds you posted as I thought the current whereabouts/fate of almost all of those was pretty much known?
The Fishbeds that I’m not aware of recent sightings for are the following:
7706 MiG-21MF
7715 MiG-21MF
9404 MiG-21MF
9406 MiG-21MF
9710 MiG-21MF
9714 MiG-21MF
9813 MiG-21MF
9814 MiG-21MF
9815 MiG-21MF
3176 MiG-21UM Sold Abroad (but to where?!)
Most of the MiG-21MF I’ve listed above are the ones that raised suspicions in certain people who follow such movements of hardware around the globe as much as they can.
Any info you have on any of these would be very much appreciated, Martinez: many thanks in advance.
Keep up the good work, Chaps!
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownI thought the cut-off time for April 1st jokes was 12:00 GMT 😀
You left ‘Hungary’ in the first line of text :diablo:
Steve
Steve TouchdownAlso check this virtually identical thread from July 2004
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=27773
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownHelo Steve,
Yep, the UN register declarations.
The six L-29 aircraft are almost sure ex Bulgarian aircraft.
I have also seen a picture of an Angolan L-39!We need so more digging 🙂
Rgd,
Jeroen
100% in agreement, Jeroen: we need to send Arthur to Angola with a Maglite torch to check some wheel bays! :diablo:
To be serious though, the register still actually shows 12 L-29s: 6 in 1999 and 6 in 2002. Bulgaria is a definite possibility, but remember that they are all shown in Slovakia’s declarations as “exports” and there’s no mention of them at all in the Bulgarian section. This could just be that a Slovakian-based company acted as brokers for the sale and that Bulgaria, quite correctly, didn’t declare them in their own returns as they aren’t considered to be combat aircraft.
The one story from around the time the Fishbeds at Sliac went missing which keeps bugging me for some reason is that of the An-124 that was impounded in Kazakhstan in 1999 with six MiG-21s on board. It transpired that these were due to be ilegally sold to North Korea by a Czech company called Agroplast. Reports at the time stated these were ex-Kazakh aircraft, but also that a total of between 30 and 40 were involved. Even more strange, to the suspicious amongst us anyway, is that the destination for the flight was originally given as Bratislava, before the crew came clean.
There have certainly been some “interesting” sales and transfers over the last few years!
Are you up-to-speed on the proposed sale of the Bulgarian L-39s to Belarus that has run into problems?
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
Steve TouchdownYes, I can confirm some Fitters at LOT Trencin in 2000. I have also seen several photos of those, already with Angolan markings applied, and they looked in pristine condition.
Thanks for that, Flex.
The Guys that did the base visit in August 2000 also went to Trencin but didn’t get access to the pretty large LOT hangar, and it was closed. The same hangar was visited a year later and there were no signs of any Fitters so at least the time period can be narrowed-down a bit thanks to the photos you’ve seen!
I had an e-mail a couple of years ago, from a Czech enthusiast, who had heard that the Angolans lost four Fitters failry shortly after their delivery: one was reportedly “shot down” and the other three were said to have crashed.
It would be great to find out about the “missing” Sliac Fishbeds: reports were that they were “scrapped”, but I’m not sure how believable that is given that many older models have sat around with flat tyres gathering rust and birds nests for far longer than the “missing” ones. The Slovak MoD admitted themselves that scrapping the MiG-21s was too costly to carry-out.
So if anyone knows where they finished-up, please send in answers on a postcard!
Best regards
Steve Rush ~ Touchdown-News
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