now y don we look as to what the AF of these countries adress their AF and from that single out which start from IAF and then look to the AF in terms of its birth

so maybe Italian AF or Indian AF ? … BTW when was Italian AF born?

Types:
MI-35 (supposed: 12)
MI-171V5 (supposed: 26)
Mi-26 (supposed: 03)
TOTAL: 41

wow Mi-26 too???…… thats a good one, now Unkil maynot have to search for Ukranian or Russian Mi-26 to lift there Chinook or Stallion when it crash lands …. they can just call in the Venenzuelian service and also make the relationship better with the services

You guys must have read this article full, I just wanted to put some points to that one and I don’t have any doubt as to who was the real Looser in the Exercise …… and frankly I am not at all interested in any yearly exercises of this sort and hope they wind up the series for good. Neither do I am very much enthusiastic abt the “practically unproductive” naval exercises with the USN which gives nothing comprehensive in terms of operational or “situational awareness” for the Indian Navy as a value addition for its future growth and roles to make it a true 3-D Blue water force.

3rd Wing explains what happened when U.S. pilots faced innovative Indian air force tactics

http://samariaf0.tripod.com/copeb.html
(Source:Aviation Week & Space Technology,10/04/2004, page 50 : David A. Fulghum, Elmendorf AFB, Alaska)

The losing performance of F-15Cs in simulated air-to-air combat against the Indian air force this year is being perceived by some, both in the U.S. and overseas, as a weakening of American capabilities, and it is generating taunts from within the competitive U.S. fighter community.

The Cope India exercise also seemingly shocked some in Congress and the Pentagon who used the event to renew the call for modernizing the U.S. fighter force with stealthy F/A-22s and F-35 Joint Strike Fighters.

That shows or tell the earlier or initial storyline which the planners thought might work well (and indeed working well, actually way too much that they thought :D) to get hold of the F-22, but … the after effects was more dampening for which is what new dossier is all about …

The reasons for the drubbing have gone largely unexplained and been misunderstood, according to those based here with the 3rd Wing who participated. Two major factors stand out: None of the six 3rd Wing F-15Cs was equipped with the newest long-range, active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars. These Raytheon APG-63(V)2 radars were designed to find small and stealthy targets. At India’s request, the U.S. agreed to mock combat at 3-to-1 odds and without the use of simulated long-range, radar-guided AIM-120 Amraams that even the odds with beyond-visual-range kills.

This represents the start of new dossier to moderate the excerpts and results of the exercise or in plan word damage control for the earlier exercises which is increasingly getting proved in favour of IAF

This also gives away the earlier speculated one of the AESA equipped F-15Cs coming in, but that was coz of the inability of the immatured – mostly Indian thinkers – who was drooling abt the new found honeymoon and thought out that US indeed would be showcasing their AESA when it was a guaranteed one that IAF was in no hurry to rush in with their Snow Leopard.

Also, it now confirms that as earlier speculated and the generated DISBELIEF as to how an IAF Su-30K could get over an AESA equipped F-15Cs more and more realistic, proving a nightmare for many. This makes clear that the USAF did not commit any ground breaking weapons superiority, which makes the earlier quoted number game of 4:1 in favour of IAF pretty much hold ground.

And of course the new additional part being the 3:1 odds that was against the USAF :p, so hopefully they are SHOUTING that for all the previous USAF ‘world records’ in air-battle, a USAF w/o the numerical superiority would have been just a hot-knife-through-butter affair for the opponents. GOOD!

These same U.S. participants say the Indian pilots showed innovation and flexibility in their tactics. They also admit that they came into the exercise underrating the training and tactics of the pilots they faced. Instead of typical Cold War-style, ground-controlled interceptions, the Indians varied aircraft mixes, altitudes and formations. Indian air force planners never reinforced failure or repeated tactics that the U.S. easily repelled. Moreover, the IAF’s airborne commanders changed tactics as opportunities arose. Nor did U.S. pilots believe they faced only India’s top guns. Instead, they said that at least in some units they faced a mix of experienced and relatively new Indian fighter and strike pilots.

Now IAF is the biggest looser, as the other side has got more than what IAF should have showcased, namely the “innovative and flexibility in tactics”, “aircraft mixes”, “altitudes and formations”, “never reinforced failure”, “ never repeated tactics”…. I’d say a dump showcasing from IAF guys, was needed at all!

I Hope the Indian members would be aware for the fact abt the IA experience of the artillery officer who showcased and proved to his Chinese counterpart abt the kind of firepower during a demo that was talked abt, which the Chinese found it hard to believe. But then in the 62 conflict the same officer found out that the opponent who won over him was the same Chinese officer whom he had showcased his firepower.

And what do u guys think abt the time and energy needed for a computer modeling of the same???…. for ‘dealing with’ the IAF …… I guess u guys are forgetting the fact that every single battle field is a Chess Board and every battle a game of Chess or the age Old Indian “Shatrang” ….. And it was pretty “long back” that IBM made “human brain” defeated the unbeatable Human Brain, and that happened after analyzing the opponents movements for a particular “input” and then modeling it for all the probabilities ….. as simple as it is!

Maj. Mark A. Snowden, the 3rd Wing’s chief of air-to-air tactics and a participant in Cope India, spoke for the 13 U.S. pilots who attended the exercise. They flew six F-15Cs, each equipped with a fighter data link for rapid exchange of target information, AIM-9Xs and a Joint Helmet-Mounted Cueing System, he says. The aircraft had been to Singapore for another exercise and for the long, six-week jaunt it was decided not to bring along the additional maintenance package needed to support AESA-equipped F-15Cs.

And that tell u that F-15 though lacking seriously in their fighting abilities or for that matter any other USAF aircrafts i.e the AWACS, these guys had a decent ‘situational awareness’ from their data linking, now if anyone wants to adore that the radar the F-15C is crap, then well come forward to claim that it don’t give them any capability. But remember that it will also affect the sales of F-series and other American a/c unless u also have AWACS ….

Cope India was held Feb. 15-28 at Gwalior, about 150 mi. south of Delhi, where the Indian air force has its Tactics Air Combat Development Establishment, which operates late-model MiG-21 Fishbeds as fighter escorts and MiG-27 Floggers as strike aircraft. Aerospace officials who have heard the classified brief on the exercise say the MiG-21s were equipped with a “gray-market” Bison radar and avionics upgrade.

Yup that guy need to clean up his ear first so that he can hear a bit more abt the gray-market Bison’s. And this is what the grrr8 Dossier that’s now presented and many jumping over it as “odds was heavily against USAF”

Mica-armed Dassault Mirages 2000s are also stationed there. Brought in for the exercise were Sukhoi Su-30s (but not the newest Su-30 MKIs) carrying simulated AA-11s and AA-12 Adders. There also were five MiG-29 Flankers involved in a peripheral role and an Antonov An-32 Cline as a simulated AWACS.

Yes again wonder piece from the seasoned guys :p …. When did IAF smuggle out Mica, maybe some ground stationed guys stole it from the French kit last time they came here for exercise and when they were up in the air :p, So soon we can hear some missile in the annual report of the French …

“The outcome of the exercise boils down to [the fact that] they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected,” Snowden says. “India had developed its own air tactics somewhat in a vacuum. They had done some training with the French that we knew about, but we did not expect them to be a very well-trained air force. That was silly.

Again poor show by IAF guys as the other chap is understanding you more and getting more from u than what u got from the exercises which don’t even compare to peanuts.

“They could come up with a game plan, but if it wasn’t working they would call an audible and change [tactics in flight],” he says. “They made good decisions about when to bring their strikers in. The MiG-21s would be embedded with a Flogger for integral protection. There was a data link between the Flankers that was used to pass information. [Using all their assets,] they built a very good [radar] picture of what we were doing and were able to make good decisions about when to roll [their aircraft] in and out.”

Again the same thing, giving out more than what u need to for that blunt showoff :dev2: …. This would make up a good computer modeling kit for any AF who needs to amplify their fighting skill to get a good first-rate war gamming kit.

Oh so the datalink of the Flankers and the Bison’s is what actually shifted the score in favor of IAF, really good, so what happed to the F-15s data-link??… IAF jammed it or what? ….I am now starting to think if IAF is actually what it is and if they are somehow made up of martinians from the inside … after all in the Indian Mythology there is mention of the red planet, even before some one to whom it is attributed as the discoverer of the red planet!

Aerospace industry officials say there’s some indication that the MiG-21s also may have been getting a data feed from other airborne radars that gave them improved situational awareness of the airborne picture.

So that’s what turned the match in IAF’s favor …. that’s simply grr8!

Generally the combat scenario was to have four F-15s flying at any time against about 12 Indian aircraft. While the U.S. pilots normally train to four versus 12, that takes into account at least two of the U.S. aircraft having AESA radar and being able to make the first, beyond-visual-range shots. For the exercise, both sides restricted long-range shots.

ie all the 4 x F-15Cs which are data linked are flying against 12 x Indian aircraft or the 4 x F-15c are protecting against a 12 aircraft strike force comprising say about 6-8 strikers for any decent strike load. So that leaves out 4-6 Indian air-defence fighters which makes the numbers of air combat fighter pretty equal and more so the F-15Cs enjoying the ‘home ground’, where as the attackers are coming in burning so much fuel.

And funny to hear that with only 17-27 x AESA F-15Cs in the USAF, they only train considering that of that x F-15C, at least 2 is AESA equipped, that’s real BS training if its actually the case, so were they training like this too before??.. no wonder that IDF/AF has been slaughtering the USAF in all the exercises.

And both sides restricted BVR shots, ok and as Flex pointed out, it is more likely that the USAF was the one to push forward that coz they did not want to ‘compromise’ the AMRAAM’s range, but then u should put the blame on the opponents when the PR gets really out of control in the first phase …

“That’s what the Indians wanted to do,” Snowden says. “That [handicap] really benefits a numerically superior force because you can’t whittle away some of their force at long range. They were simulating active missiles [including] AA-12s.” This means the missile has its own radar transmitter and doesn’t depend on the launch aircraft’s radar after launch. With the older AA-10 Alamo, the launching fighter has to keep its target illuminated with radar so the U.S. pilots would know when they were being targeted. But with the AA-12, they didn’t know if they had been targeted.

Oh really … that’s a handicap???… the limiting of the BVR shots to say 20nm is a handicap???…. I hope someone can put forward the figures of real engagements for all the BVR kills …. The worlds mightiest AF or so say many is handicapped coz the BVR shot was limited to just 20nm or miles (?) .… and WTFH was they doing with the amraam????….. did they not simulate that with a range capped at 20nm or did they use any older model for simulation??…..

If its so , meaning they used older models , then it will only augment the fact that IAF was infact wasting their time, energy and money for some jokers, who did not spare the Bill for IAF “return trip” to Alaska.

The Mirage 2000s carried the active Mica missile. Aerospace industry officials said that some of the radars the U.S. pilots encountered, including that of the Mirage 2000s, exhibited different characteristics than those on standard versions of the aircraft.

Yup sure, Mica has been made by BDL and has been use with the French on their Mirages for very long but IAF prefer the 530D and Adder and others. Again ..that ‘different characteristics’ means that they are getting very well abt the radars that IAF are using and probably the ‘inside changes’ IAF made for the Radars. But now USAF would also be knowing what all that’s abt as they could not have got that ‘different characteristics’ from the French or anyone else as that was an Indian affair so to get that the best way was for a joint exercises, and that will be made to continue as long as the Final Version of Snow Leopard don’t come out! ….. after all for future library in the making every language is necessary so as to keep it in good sted

The U.S. pilots used no active missiles, and the AIM-120 Amraam capability was limited to a 20-naut.-mi. range while keeping the target illuminated when attacking and 18 naut. mi. when defending, as were all the missiles in the exercise.

Yup sure, both sides were limited to 20nm but then, WTFH was amraam???… seems like a big bun of jokes for the ignorant home crowds

“When we saw that they were a more professional air force, we realized that within the constraints of the exercise we were going to have a very difficult time,” Snowden says.

Really??….. and how did they see that IAF was a professional force other than when in air???…. Walking around the campus ??…. Wow that’s really grr8 … again a bad initial pr that went really bad is not augmented by another worse stuffs …

“In general, it looked like they ran a broad spectrum of tactics and they were adaptive. They would analyze what we were doing and then try something else. They weren’t afraid to bring the strikers in high or low. They would move them around so that we could never anticipate from day to day what we were going to see.”

Again more than what u should let other now abt u….really bad practice from IAF.

By comparison, the U.S. pilots don’t think they offered the Indians any surprises. The initial tactic is to run a wall with all four F-15s up front. That plays well when the long-range missiles and AESA radar are in play.

Yes that’s what I say IAF is the LOOSER! .. they gained nothing compared to what USAF could gain about IAF and its tactics from the exercise!!!

“You know we’re there and we’re not hiding,” Snowden says. “But we didn’t have the beyond-visual-range shot or the numerical advantage. Eventually we were just worn down by the numbers. They were very smart about it.

Yup sure, not ashamed to speak this jokes abt the BVR and the numerical advantage and shamelessly but noteworthy points, giving an idea that all the previous campaign crediting USAF victory would not have been possible w/o the American Air – Numerical – Superiority enjoyed by the USAF fighters! Not to mention the invaluable AWACS w/o which all the USAF fighter seems like Hot-Knife-Through-Butter Affair for the opponents like what these guys are admitting over here!

Their goal was to get to a target area, engage the target and then withdraw without prolonging the fight. If there were a couple of Eagles still alive away from the target area, they would keep them pinned in, get done with the target and then egress with all their forces.

Again understanding IAF better with IAF getting absolutely nothing in return!

“All their aircraft seemed to be capable of breaking out [targets] and shooting at the ranges the exercise allowed,” he says. “We generally don’t train to an active missile threat [like the Mirage’s Mica or the AA-12 for the Russian-built aircraft], and that was one of the things that caused us some problems.”

and I wud hope that USAF remain the same and don’t train for active AAM’s coz they don’t have any enemy, India is not an enemy as they want to have very closer relations, Soviet Union is far gone and Russia is not a Threat, China as most American members is not a threat, and neither is China in their backyards. So I feel they should move forward to a better world and scrap all the unwanted force so that they can keep just the F-22 as their main task is the War on Terrorism which started on 9/11 though India as a nation had its war on terrorism started way back in 88-89 with the terrorists getting support from the other side of the border which in turn got military and monetary aid from the other side of the Atlantic and continue to be like that.

USAF planners here see Cope India as the first step in an annual series of exchange exercises.

I wud say the earliest IAF stop jokes like these the Better! IAF has got lot more to learn in terms of training value and operational value from the French and the Royal AF. I’d say IAF concentrate their efforts with the French and British also it wasn’t long that IAF learned pretty decent lessons from the French in BVR, so IAF should indeed look forward to having exercises more so with the French and RAF in the future and save a lot of OIL, energy, time and money w/o these kinds of JOKES, the returns from which is ABSOLUTE ZERO, but ironically ZERO was invented in India!