You did use the word “Commie”

I also did use the word CURRENT.

You are assuming that everyone in the Western democracies spends a lot of time engaged in intellectual activity or seriously debating politics.

I am not assuming anything. People spend their time engaging in activties that interest them. If it is intellecutal activity or debating politics for some people, then that is their choice. I believe this is true for citizens of Western democracies and Eastern democracies. At least they have the right to engage in activities of their choice when it does not impinge on the rights of others to live their normal life, without interference from their governments.

A lot of people in the West do merely parrot the government’s line or the line of whatever party they follow. This is because they do not care about government. Most people only care about their own personal lives. They do not care about the big picture.

It is all about personal choice. I am referring to democracies as a whole. They have the right to seek information that goes contrary to the governments line and they can seek so if they want to and express their protest if they are not pleased with this line. No man is perfect. We all have our flaws. We are not talking politics here, but direct interference by the rulers in an individuals life right from infancy with the goal of neutralizing his/her individuality.

And when they have an opinion on something, it’s usually based on an extremely poor understanding of issues. Often people will vote on something simply because their parents/friends did or because they don’t like the look of the politician.

It all again boils down to individuality. What you are expressing is conjecture.

My Soviet Union example is valid because it was a totalitarian society. But just because you cannot speak your mind openly in regards to politics does not mean you cannot excel in scientific matters or sporting matters.

I am not talking politics here. The rulers choose who should become scientists and athletes, not the individuals themselves. If the individual has outstanding talent in athletics and science, but expresses disageement with govt policy openly in a totalitarian regime, would he/she ever be allowed to go the path they wish to go? Most probably they would be ostracized from society or sent into forced labor or prison camps. And this has happened to countless individuals and it can easily be checked upon if you have the time to google. The individual has no rights. He/she is completely dependent on the govt even to make basic choices that define their life. Even if they wanted to choose their own paths, the govt could make them go in a different way. Would that happen in a democratic society.

However fighter pilots do not have anything to do with the type of government as stated in all the above responses (training, equipment etc).

Again we are not talking politics as we understand it in democracies. We are talking about a WAY OF LIFE where the individual is not free to choose his/her path. They are chosen for him/her. Fighter pilots are people before they are fighter pilots. They have to be ones who confirm rabidly with the regime because the regime is by nature paranoid and fears change, so they are essentially totalitarian personalities and history has shown us that totalitarian personalities are not flexible and not receptive to ideas that go contrary to their ways of thinking, so there is reason to doubt their efficacy.

Check out the post from Crobato in accidents in PLAAF which provides some insight into what he calls “peasant” psychology. So here we have concrete proof of what totalitarian regimes can do to their citizens, many of them combat pilots. Most importantly, this one example might just be the tip of the iceberg.

You can chose to be very politically active in any regime. If you are in a democracy you vote or stand for election. In a Communist regime you become a member of the Communist party. In a military dictatorship you join the army officer corp. And in a theocracy you become a cleric.

That is exactly it, one has to choose the above paths to be anything in such a society even if one does not want to. What happens when one chooses to be politically active against the regime instead of being active in it, then it is usually prison without trial or the firing squad.

I will come back to the rest of the topics raised in another post some time later.

Regards

where did i said military doctorine? I merely referred to Atheletes, Scientist and engineers. East communist produce far more and far more capable than Free West by wide margin.

They travelled from East to West because World monetary Unit was not Rouble where Governments can generously finance development of luxuries of lives and support standard of living. It does not mean that these people were retarded individuals or there brains were less developed than the people born in free West as u seem to imply.

Who is implying anything about the “free west” or “free east.” It seems to me that you are implying imaginary things to suit your purpose. Do not try to imply things in my post that are not there. I am talking about the CURRENT state (2006) of affairs where indoctrination of ideology in a “certain” communist regime is causing repression of freedom not in tune with current realities. People are not cattle, they are human beings and they should be allowed to live their own life without interference from their rulers, and people who grow up mentally conditioned by this “certain” country could make flawed combat pilots.

I do not think it is worth the effort replying to your posts unless there is substance in it. Please do not misunderstand me.

Regards

It seems that my reply to this particular post was removed, for reasons that seem unfathomable to me. Let me put it this way.

As wonderfully cloaked as the above is, it is sadly outdated and cliched to boot.

One must face the realities of today and the reality is that free nations and democracies grow not only materially but their people grow intellectually too, which is sadly lacking in commie dictatorships. Any mentally conditioned zombie can be an average businessman, but to be forced to lose ones individuality because of the State is to my mind extreme. In these circumstances people are indoctrinated to not think for self, the State does their thinking. Even now citizens of a certain country cannot google freely because their government fears the wrong information might fall into their hands and give them ideas. Am I wrong in thinking that combat pilots from this mould cannot adapt to changing situations, formulate new tactics as the environment changes. From birth they have been conditioned to not think free thoughts, free speech is anathema to them, then how can they fight an enemy who from birth has had the opportunity to think for self, grow intellectually, and given the freedom to explore and think for themselves. How can one expect a caged falcon to be the equivalent of a falcon that is flying free.

I would like to give an example. The worlds largest democracy is growing at above 8% annually and this growth is transforming the country, poverty is declining at an extremely rapid rate, the standard of living is rising, all this without compromising on fundamental human rights. It now has the largest number of billionaires in Asia, which is ample testimony to what is possible for an individual to achieve without the State stifling his/her individuality, that too within a decade following the economic reforms. The air force has great aircraft that have the best of east, west, and indigenous equipment incorporated in them with new ones in the pipeline.

One must not forget that commie dictatorships do have poor people and rampant poverty, but here the poor are displaced, hidden, or purged to keep up the great commie image.

Migs and Sukhois are among the best of the best. Pardon my saying so, but I was under the impression that these are made by Russia, a progressive democratic country where people actually elect their president and have a parliament called Duma. Please check up on your current affairs. You must also check up the nonaligned movement when you do check your history.

Mentally-conditioned men can only do so much howsoever hard they are trained. One cannot undo a way of life stamped into a person from birth onwards where others do the thinking for him and expect him to become an innovative and adaptable person in an air combat situation that requires split-second decision making ability which comes naturally to a free thinking person.

Regards

I am quoting what I have said previously so as not to repeat myself.

A lot of people have been repeating cliches that are just that…..not true in current reality. Current reality is that democracy is the engine for social and economic progress and it is happening at a very rapid pace in the largest democracy. There is an upward spiral in every sector. As the economy booms, the social sector is rapidly changing for the better. Prosperity is heralding change and every year remarkable positive change is happening. The education sector is producing students who can compete with the best in the world. To give an example; fortune 500 companies are recruiting talent to manage their businesses from here for their global offices and at salaries that are competitive on the global scale. This speaks volumes for the education sector and how it is appreciated the world over.

Repeating cliches that do not face up to current reality is of course sad to see, but not surprising when it comes from certain quarters who aim to divert attention from the main topic.

Regards

What a load of bullsh!t. The Soviet Union had excellent engineering and scientific skills. Remember Yuri Gragarin and remember Sputnik?

And there are plenty of people in the Western democracies who are consumer zombies with little or no thought about politics. I know many people here in Australia who can barely read despite finishing 12 years of schooling. I even know university educated people who do not know such simple things as that Italy is in Europe or that the correct title of John Howard’s position is Prime Minister and not President.

And India has been a democracy for a long time, yet has a large percentage of illitereate people while boasting the most Universities on the planet.

Intellectual achievement is a cultural phenomenon. It depends on whether that society promotes intellectual thinking and is open to new ideas.

The Soviet Union is no more and I do not have to tell you why it is no more.

We are I believe talking about the CURRENT state of affairs.

You come from a society that is democratic. Would you allow yourself to be reduced to a person merely parroting what the goverment wants you to say without having the freedom of choice to decide for yourself.

At least the consumer zombies have the choice to choose to be zombies. They are such because of their own free will. If they wanted to choose a better path, they could very well have chosen to do so. Ignorance is a way of life for many and it is of their own choosing. On the other hand, in a repressive communist dictatorship, people live in constant fear of even saying things because the wrong politically incorrect word can get them into prison without TRIAL.

You very rightly say this. [B]Intellectual achievement is a cultural phenomenon. It depends on whether that society promotes intellectual thinking and is open to new ideas [B], but can you seriously attribute such qualities to a paranoid repressive totalitarian regime that will not even allow its citizens to google freely for fear of these same citizens acquiring knowledge that is not to the liking of their masters. This is just one example, which I have already previously mentioned. Please read the rest of my posts to get my impressions on certain repressive commie dictatorships and how repressive ideology can certainly negatively influence military aviation while contaminating the civilian population.

To keep from repeating myself, please read my second post from the title post and if you have the time, my other posts.

Regards

.

“I FIGHT MY OWN FIGHTS”
(Meaning: I separate myself from the rest of the maddening crowd)

Now, back to the topic:

You are not addressing the probem and the problem is: What is
your beef with “your targetted object”? Suspicions: Did they FLG’ed you? Or, are
you maybe one of those who had exploited CNN as a lethal weapon and tried to use it
to run over a T-59 or two some years back? Or, had they (those dictators :p )
maybe interupted your longings for a Kingdom all your own?

Or more seriously: Had those dictators :p maybe kept you from
following in the footsteps of some two bit monk and, in a conspiracy of kind with
others — made pathetic/outlandish charges about that dictator you hated so much, or, does it
maybe have something to do with yet unresolved border issues?

My My!!! You really think you are cute don’t you :p ?
.

Okay so this certain person separates himself from the MADDENING crowd so that he can defend commie dictatorships. Lol.

A person who believes in democratic values would not pick on someone who denounces commie dictatorships and their enslavement of people.

Perhaps this person has aspirations for a dictatorship of his own with many human cattle of his own to do his bidding; maybe that is why such eloquent defense of such regimes.

But this is deviating from the topic. Cattle and sheep flying combat planes would surely be able to overcome any odd? would’nt they?

Regards

Arguing that free nations create immense wealth and healthy population is being “brainwashed?” Arguing that truly free societies are wealthier than communist ones is being “brainwashed?”

Are you actually arguing for free nations or against them, Ramachandran? :rolleyes:

Unless you actually believe that free nations should be poorer and have more infants dying than communist ones, you should never complain that a person arguing for the superiority of free states as being “brainwashed.”

“Freedom” does NOT mean choosing to be desperately poor and malnourished

Let’s.

In your first post:

Good. What is the greatest reflection of a society? The health and well being of its citizens.

When the largest so-called “democracy” in the world is filled to the brim (like Dante’s 9 levels of Hell) with the most appallingly poor people in the world, it is also a reflection of the society.

When that country’s children die more often and live shorter lives than even the worst and most brutish commie country (North Korea) in the world, then that is also a reflection of the country.

A reflection of not only its immense poverty in wealth. But of its poverty in freedom and human decency as well. The quality of pilots should be the last thing a free people worry about when their infant mortality rate is twice than of commie North Korea.

Read my first post in reply to your first post, i.e. post #20 and also #26 and #28. You are repeating the cliches that are expected of you. I will not say that things are perfect, but things are moving at a very rapid pace in the right direction. Democracy is the catalyst and with the economic reforms, it is just a matter of time before problems will be overcome.

Regards

You should look at the infant mortality & longevity of Cuba & some of the E. European countries when they were communist. Compare them with other countries at the same time. Go back a bit, maybe to the 1960s & 1970s.

I think you’d be very surprised by what you find. For any given level of income, communist countries had better life expectancy & infant mortality than non-communist for most of their existence – and Cuba still does, much better. But the strongest correlation is with income: rich countries do better than poor countries.

I would not dispute any of the facts that have been stated here. But, in terms of current reality, they might be outdated.

Definitely many of the statistics are true, but such statistics are also true in cattle or sheep farms. The cattle and sheep are bred and have vets to take care of their health, to prevent infant mortality; have attendants to feed them and take care of their every needs. But, do these cattle have any individual rights of their own. They have everything, but still they have nothing because they are not free. They are the tools of their masters to be used and manipulated by them. Unfortunately, this is what happens to people in communist dictatorships. They end up living like these sheep and cattle; the only difference being that they are human instead of cattle. They cannot exercise free will, they cannot have children beyond the limit set by the masters, they cannot live as they choose, the masters whip constantly hangs over their heads like the sword of damocles. Humans end up being manipulated like puppets, living as they are told to live. Is this living?

More to the point, would you disagree when I say that combat pilots who come from such repressive societies do incorporate some of the ills of this society.

personality flaws? that will show up in combat.

how come CIS/Eastern Eu always wins more Olympic. medals than combined Free West. most of scientist and successful people in free world are born in the communist countries. i have yet to find second generation decent scientist born in free world. even u trace the origins of Israel population most of it will go towards the east communist bloc.
And Soviet Union/Russia if apply doctorine of overhelming force against very advanced free countries like Scandanvian or Japan or any other beside US. the result will be the same as US vs Irak. it all depends on how u apply that doctorine. there are other examples middleast wars but there were mismatch of weopons and in some cases aircrafts of different generations.

Please read above.

We are not discussing military doctrine here, but about the quality of manpower specifically military aviation when oppressive regimes stifle the creativity and humanity of their people.

You are quoting history twisted to suit your fancy. I believe you answer the questions you raise. Why did they go to Israel or other countries from the east communist block?

Regards