Golden Dragon, can’t believe you wasted all that time posting to this idiot 😉

Please do not fall down to the level of personal attacks. It reflects on you more than me.

Peace

Let’s see, Ramachandran. Your thread is about pilots from “free societes” versus those of “commie dictatorships.”

So obviously, you’ve defined the two sides in the debate. These two sides are well defined and have been since the Cold War.

1) Commies = unfree, poor, MiGs as represented by the USSR and the Warsaw Pact, therefore the pilots are poor.

2) Free= free, rich, Boeing or General Dynamics as represented by the US and NATO, therefore the pilots are superior.

The key is defining who belongs to what camp.

Now, take the world’s largest so-called “democracy.”

It is immensely poor, like the commies (actually even POORER than commies.)

It was on the side of the USSR during the Cold War. Friends of commies?

It flies MiGs. Obviously users of inferior commie products.

The world’s largest “democracy” therefore fits the “commie” bill to the T (except that it is even poorer) so the evidence is pretty overwhelming that its pilots are just as bad, right?

Thanks for bringing this discussion up.

Please try to stay within the topic.

When I refer to commie dictatorships, I refer to CURRENT state of affairs. In a world where communism is history, the practice of a virulent strain of such ideology in certain quarters subverts basic human integrity and the rights of a person to live with dignity. Such ideology demeans and dehumanizes an individual, making the person a mere extension of the State instead of an individual in his/her own right. Definitely military pilots would be subverted enough to lose their edge in combat with illogical ideological thoughts against change and freedom rammed into their minds from infancy.

One does not have to be rich or American to enjoy democracy or human rights. It is a universal value that every citizen of this planet should enjoy to fully reach his/her potential as global citizens, but unfortunately many do not enjoy the fruits of democracy as yet.

Pilots from democratic countries irrespective of their region of origin or country have the inherent advantage of having experienced the basic fruits of democracy, i.e. freedom of speech, thought, expression right from their infancy. Thereby, they have the advantage of having an open mind to change, accept and integrate new concepts and ideas into their flying and the acumen to experiment with these ideas to extract the full benefits from them.

Please read my previous post so that I do not have to repeat myself about Russia and the strength of her democratic institutions.

The worlds largest democracy sits right up in the front with all the other democracies and its citizens are now enjoying the fruits of their hard work. And, its combat pilots are right there among the very best in the world.

You are welcome to join the discussion. Just please do not keep repeating yourself.

Not always, and you really have to know what you are talking about before you can even start to do this comparison let alone go down a route which has nothing but generalisations. What makes you think that a country with a system of governance other than democracy would not be able to implement a training regime good as if not better then a democracy?

And what makes you choose you’re so called “FREE” societies, just because government does not interfere does not mean that a person’s life is free. They are still governed by “social norms” or etiquette, the only difference between a democratic and non democratic country would be the level of interference of its leadership within society.

Unless you know the training regime of the non democratic country visa vie a democratic country you really cannot deliberate either way.

p.s. by stating that India has the highest number of billionaires in the world so it must be giving some chance for people to flourish you are just showing your ignorance at society within “the non democratic country”. Just because a person doesn’t always need to get his remuneration through some monitory exchange it can be done by “state assistance” is facilitating the “needs” of that person through some other means by which he can have items of value equal to the billionaire if not more.

As I have said before a person reflects the society from which he comes. Do you honestly believe that the rulers of a country who are so paranoid its citizens might learn something other than what the State wants them to learn by going ahead and preventing them from getting information even on the Internet, going ahead and putting down through assassinations, purges and mass arrests an innocent religious movement, ever allow their military personnel including pilots the training to think differently. Change is a word that such a society fears. New ideas and practices would probably make them throw up. How do you expect military pilots from such a closed society to ever have the acumen to adapt to changing needs. It would be something extremely illogical to expect.

I guess you take democracy and the freedom that comes with it for granted. Maybe an extended stay in such a society with your mouth zipped, spies keeping tabs on who you meet, what you eat, drink, what you say, or forced to say only what the State wants to hear would clear up your mind. In my opinion maybe a brainwashed zombie can survive this experience; not one who enjoys the benefits of democracy.

Who ever started this thread wanted to pretend that a country that is among the most desperately poor in the world is “free” in the same way as the United States :rolleyes:

Truly free nations are universally rich. A nation that is so poor that its people could only afford 1/3th or 1/10th of the computers and refrigerators and whose people live 8 years less than that of a communist country is not “free” by any definition. A feudal serfdom is not “free” even though it is not communist. A caste system where the vast majority are born poor and remain stuck in that station is not “free” even though it is not a communist..

True. But I feel the need to argue for the advantages of free states over feudal societies who pretend western-style freedoms while being the world’s largest prison of squalor and poverty.

It seems to me that ignorance pervades in certain quarters about democracy. It would seem only those who have first-hand experience of living in a democratic free society which via constitution grants a citizen something called “human rights” to enjoy life as he pleases within the constraints of societal obligations would understand what is democracy. It would be too much to expect certain quarters to even have an inkling of what is democracy, having never experienced it.

I am unaware of making any comparisons to the USA. Please do not make up imaginary stuff.

Please read my previous post so that you do not have to repeat yourself.

The main objective of my post was to highlight how ideology and indoctrination from childhood can negatively influence the development of an individual into a versatile and skilled combat pilot in commie dictatorships.

The above seems to be an attempt at diverting attention from the topic. I can understand that in certain quarters ignorance can be bliss or pretending to be blind when one sees the rot that forced indoctrination and stifling free speech is doing to the quality of human resources including military personnel and pilots.

Please stick to the subject if at all possible. :rolleyes:

It is you are mistaken, the reason for the Luftwaffes faliure or overcome the RAF in the battle of britain is becouse of a number of factors, none of which involve pilot skill.

1)Luftwaffe fighter pilots were forced to fly at the very limits of their endurance giving them just ten minuts over london to defend the bombers.

2)The decision to change the focus of the bombing from RAF airfields to the cities, although a mistake it is one that would likely have occured in a democratic society also.

3) The decision to invade the soviet union pulled resources from the battle of britain to the east, effectively ending the campaign.

You have justified my faith in the views I have expressed.

You would agree then that the battle of britain was an exercise in futility. Dictatorships operate on the premise of absolute authority. They believe they are infallible. The lives of their pilots hold no value. They are expendable. Do you honestly believe that in such conditions anybody has freedom of speech or thought. Freedom of speech would likely mean facing the firing squad and many have indeed faced them for having the courage to state their views. I fail to see any democratic country indulging in such foolishness to please the whim of any one individual. Pilots sent to their death because Hitler felt like it. Also I believe pilot skill played a major part in the allied victory.

How can a democratic country ever sanction deliberate civilian destruction when the purpose of neutralizing the allied war infrastructure was the objective way to go. Such callousness and inhumanity led to retaliatory activities by the allies.

Another of Hitlers gargantuan blunders. The nazis could very well have extended the war if not for their soviet adventure. If you are well versed with the facts then you should know it is the ego of that dictator that caused this debacle.

To conclude, military personnel, i.e. pilots of commie or military dictatorships, especially commie dictatorships, are more indoctrinated in their ideology than the common citizens, hence more rigid and set in their beliefs and actions. They may train hard of course, but such people who are conditioned to just think in one plane become rigid and set in their ways, rarely having the capacity to be flexible enough to change and adapt themselves as the situation changes for change is anathema to them. They do not like change. They may win a few battles, but history has proven that this kind never wins the war.

Regards

I agree with matt, the original author of this thread has already shown what his opinion is and is extremely bias.
But my two cence, The quality of pilots is based largely upon training and equipment, if this is the best then the pilots likely will be also.
To claim that people who live under dictatorships are less innovative than those from ‘free’ societys is fundamentally flawed, just look at what came out of the soviet union and nazi germany.

I would point out that in my view you are mistaken. In world war II, it was always said by the allies “get the nazi leader, and the pack disintegrates.” This was because the nazis were indoctrinated in ideas of hate and absolute obedience which are the fundamentals of dictatorships.

Can you tell me what happened in the battle of Britain, why the nazis could not overwhelm a force inferior in numbers to them.

Why did such a numerically and supposedly superbly trained air force and ultimately the nazi war machine collapse. The answer is very simple, dictatorships produce citizens who wear blinkers and refuse to move beyond what they are trained for. In other words they could not innovate and adapt to situations as the allies could.

A notable exception was Rommel but what happened to him? he was straitjacketed by people around him who could not tolerate his innovative and unique ideas.

Though the soviets cannot be compared in evil doing with the nazis, their downfall was also due to straitjacketed thinking.

Regards

I would be very careful about using the number of billionares within the country as a yard stick to measure the effective ness of its combat pilot, all this thread seems to be is a subversive way of bringing peoples racist and biased opinions on a international fora without threat of reprisal.

Needs to be deleted

Please do not misunderstand me. I used this as an example to prove that when a persons individuality is not stifled, he or she can achieve great heights. This can be drawn in parallel to the fact that prospective pilots who grow up in environments where their individuality is allowed to run its natural course without unwarranted State interference have this same advantage too. The quality of the resultant fighter pilot from such a society would be very high too.

Regards

The F-15 and F-16 never have shot down 150 MiG-29s or Su-27s.

Serbia or Iraq had really few MiG-29s while the US fielded several hundred F-15s and F-16s in each war besides several hundred more Mirage 2000, Panavia Tornadoes, Mirage f1 F-18s and F-14s.

The Iraqi lost less than 10 MiG-29s and Serbia too.

Field 100 MiG-29s versus 100 F-16 and tell me who rules having both air forces AMRAAM and R-77s

The West hardly acknowledges any Iraqi or Serb kill.

I agree. The Mig-29 is an excellent weapon. In the hands of a layman, a sword is no more good than a wooden stick. This same sword in the hands of a skilled warrior is certain death. Do not judge this fine aircraft when it is flown by amateurs. In the hands of trained warriors this same aircraft is a superlative harbinger of destruction.

Regards