Ramachandran:rolleyes: Check out the kill records of the F-15 and F-16 and then look at the battle record of the MiG-29 and SU-27, please.
Please check the Cope India results to gauge what real innovative and capable pilots can do with Sukhois and Migs.
Regards
Ramachandran:rolleyes: Check out the kill records of the F-15 and F-16 and then look at the battle record of the MiG-29 and SU-27, please.
Please check the Cope India results to gauge what real innovative and capable pilots can do with Sukhois and Migs.
Regards
RamachandranOnly free societies that have wealthy economies and have air planes 😀
True. It is even more evident among a free country’s business class than just pilots.
That is why free societies (with one glaring exception which proves the rule) are in general very rich and not only produce good pilots but also lots of first rate equipment for their pilots from their wealth.
On the other hand, a country that is very poor is probably not a truely free society no matter what it attempts to call itself. Poverty is a symptom of oppression and inequality. No man chooses to be poor and unless extremely untalented would not be poor if he had true freedom.
If a so-called “free” nation is among the poorest states in the world then it is not a free nation. The majority of such a nation is oppressed by other means than the right to vote. Lack of education, lack of upward mobility and lack of nutrition are signs of lack of freedom. Poverty is the greatest sign that there is no real freedom.
Therefore, a truly free society should NEVER be poorer than a commie or unfree neighbor. Freedom will allow talented people to create wealth and well-being for the society as a whole which in turns produce good aircraft and good pilots.
Truly free nations would never buy commie MiGs and Sukhois. They buy from the West or produce their own. They would never have allied themselves with the country Reagan called the “Evil Empire.” You will never see real free state like Australia, Japan or Canada fly MiGs.
That said, communist nations could produce good pilots in the same way they produce astronauts, ballerinas and athletes. Training in elite groups and from an early age.
It seems that my reply to this particular post was removed, for reasons that seem unfathomable to me. Let me put it this way.
As wonderfully cloaked as the above is, it is sadly outdated and cliched to boot.
One must face the realities of today and the reality is that free nations and democracies grow not only materially but their people grow intellectually too, which is sadly lacking in commie dictatorships. Any mentally conditioned zombie can be an average businessman, but to be forced to lose ones individuality because of the State is to my mind extreme. In these circumstances people are indoctrinated to not think for self, the State does their thinking. Even now citizens of a certain country cannot google freely because their government fears the wrong information might fall into their hands and give them ideas. Am I wrong in thinking that combat pilots from this mould cannot adapt to changing situations, formulate new tactics as the environment changes. From birth they have been conditioned to not think free thoughts, free speech is anathema to them, then how can they fight an enemy who from birth has had the opportunity to think for self, grow intellectually, and given the freedom to explore and think for themselves. How can one expect a caged falcon to be the equivalent of a falcon that is flying free.
I would like to give an example. The worlds largest democracy is growing at above 8% annually and this growth is transforming the country, poverty is declining at an extremely rapid rate, the standard of living is rising, all this without compromising on fundamental human rights. It now has the largest number of billionaires in Asia, which is ample testimony to what is possible for an individual to achieve without the State stifling his/her individuality, that too within a decade following the economic reforms. The air force has great aircraft that have the best of east, west, and indigenous equipment incorporated in them with new ones in the pipeline.
One must not forget that commie dictatorships do have poor people and rampant poverty, but here the poor are displaced, hidden, or purged to keep up the great commie image.
Migs and Sukhois are among the best of the best. Pardon my saying so, but I was under the impression that these are made by Russia, a progressive democratic country where people actually elect their president and have a parliament called Duma. Please check up on your current affairs. You must also check up the nonaligned movement when you do check your history.
Mentally-conditioned men can only do so much howsoever hard they are trained. One cannot undo a way of life stamped into a person from birth onwards where others do the thinking for him and expect him to become an innovative and adaptable person in an air combat situation that requires split-second decision making ability which comes naturally to a free thinking person.
Regards
RamachandranOnly free societies that have wealthy economies and have air planes 😀
True. It is even more evident among a free country’s business class than just pilots.
That is why free societies (with one glaring exception which proves the rule) are in general very rich and not only produce good pilots but also lots of first rate equipment for their pilots from their wealth.
On the other hand, a country that is very poor is probably not a truely free society no matter what it attempts to call itself. Poverty is a symptom of oppression and inequality. No man chooses to be poor and unless extremely untalented would not be poor if he had true freedom.
If a so-called “free” nation is among the poorest states in the world then it is not a free nation. The majority of such a nation is oppressed by other means than the right to vote. Lack of education, lack of upward mobility and lack of nutrition are signs of lack of freedom. Poverty is the greatest sign that there is no real freedom.
Therefore, a truly free society should NEVER be poorer than a commie or unfree neighbor. Freedom will allow talented people to create wealth and well-being for the society as a whole which in turns produce good aircraft and good pilots.
Truly free nations would never buy commie MiGs and Sukhois. They buy from the West or produce their own. They would never have allied themselves with the country Reagan called the “Evil Empire.” You will never see real free state like Australia, Japan or Canada fly MiGs.
That said, communist nations could produce good pilots in the same way they produce astronauts, ballerinas and athletes. Training in elite groups and from an early age.
It seems that my reply to this particular post was removed, for reasons that seem unfathomable to me. Let me put it this way.
As wonderfully cloaked as the above is, it is sadly outdated and cliched to boot.
One must face the realities of today and the reality is that free nations and democracies grow not only materially but their people grow intellectually too, which is sadly lacking in commie dictatorships. Any mentally conditioned zombie can be an average businessman, but to be forced to lose ones individuality because of the State is to my mind extreme. In these circumstances people are indoctrinated to not think for self, the State does their thinking. Even now citizens of a certain country cannot google freely because their government fears the wrong information might fall into their hands and give them ideas. Am I wrong in thinking that combat pilots from this mould cannot adapt to changing situations, formulate new tactics as the environment changes. From birth they have been conditioned to not think free thoughts, free speech is anathema to them, then how can they fight an enemy who from birth has had the opportunity to think for self, grow intellectually, and given the freedom to explore and think for themselves. How can one expect a caged falcon to be the equivalent of a falcon that is flying free.
I would like to give an example. The worlds largest democracy is growing at above 8% annually and this growth is transforming the country, poverty is declining at an extremely rapid rate, the standard of living is rising, all this without compromising on fundamental human rights. It now has the largest number of billionaires in Asia, which is ample testimony to what is possible for an individual to achieve without the State stifling his/her individuality, that too within a decade following the economic reforms. The air force has great aircraft that have the best of east, west, and indigenous equipment incorporated in them with new ones in the pipeline.
One must not forget that commie dictatorships do have poor people and rampant poverty, but here the poor are displaced, hidden, or purged to keep up the great commie image.
Migs and Sukhois are among the best of the best. Pardon my saying so, but I was under the impression that these are made by Russia, a progressive democratic country where people actually elect their president and have a parliament called Duma. Please check up on your current affairs. You must also check up the nonaligned movement when you do check your history.
Mentally-conditioned men can only do so much howsoever hard they are trained. One cannot undo a way of life stamped into a person from birth onwards where others do the thinking for him and expect him to become an innovative and adaptable person in an air combat situation that requires split-second decision making ability which comes naturally to a free thinking person.
Regards
RamachandranWho ever started this thead have no idea what they are talking about…
It’s the military here you are talking about… its not a fregan democracy. The same manuvres are practiced till death and air combat are based on the rules of engagement. That does not change if you wanted it to or not.
Good polit is based on training time allotted. Free countries have better pilots due to more funds avaliable to train them. So it really is about who ever has more dough. The wealthier the country the better the pilot.
Dragon you should know better than to be draged into some flame war on commies vs india…
It is the military here I am talking about and democracy. You confirm my belief. As you rightly say, the same maneuvers are practiced till death, which of course is the truth. Mentally-conditioned zombies will practice the same maneuvers against innovative, adaptable pilots and go to their death, which would be the expected scenario.
Good to see that you realize the truth. The ability to think for self and situational awareness engendered through this ability which is inculcated naturally in a person born in a democracy will always prevail, especially in a combat situation where such thinking is paramount.
Regards
RamachandranWho ever started this thead have no idea what they are talking about…
It’s the military here you are talking about… its not a fregan democracy. The same manuvres are practiced till death and air combat are based on the rules of engagement. That does not change if you wanted it to or not.
Good polit is based on training time allotted. Free countries have better pilots due to more funds avaliable to train them. So it really is about who ever has more dough. The wealthier the country the better the pilot.
Dragon you should know better than to be draged into some flame war on commies vs india…
It is the military here I am talking about and democracy. You confirm my belief. As you rightly say, the same maneuvers are practiced till death, which of course is the truth. Mentally-conditioned zombies will practice the same maneuvers against innovative, adaptable pilots and go to their death, which would be the expected scenario.
Good to see that you realize the truth. The ability to think for self and situational awareness engendered through this ability which is inculcated naturally in a person born in a democracy will always prevail, especially in a combat situation where such thinking is paramount.
Regards
RamachandranI do not wish to confuse issues here.
We have a situation where very shortly we will have a large gap in our air force that needs to be filled. I would agree with you guys on many of the points raised by you, but we must be realistic and make some stop-gap arrangement until the indigenous plans as a whole fructifies.
May be we can have a deep discussion of the issues raised above over a cup of coffee if we ever meet. If you guys ever visit Kerala, come to Alappuzha, which by the way is also known as the venice of the east, just let me know by e-mailing me at [email]Kremebunn@yahoo.com[/email].
Regards.
RamachandranNot if you are talking about something as small and complcated as a processor. Keep in mind that you would at best only have a few copy’s of the chips in question. But even if you could strip them, examine and map them with an electron microscope you still have to reproduce the manufacturing technology. And you wold run into many of the same problems as the original designers did. Grant you, relatively modern military hardware often runs on processors that are truly ancient by commercial standards. Even so if this is a proprietary processor with unique features that we are talking about and which is not available off the shelf, you will still be forced to reproduce it. Then of course there is the little matter of reverse engineering the software, doable but I don’t think it’s a trivial undertaking and if you have to port the code to another processor architecture that brings it’s own problems. All in all I’d say reproducing electronic hardware and reverse engineering software is if anything as difficuld or even more difficult than dealing with the space age materials the airframe and engine will be made of.
The hardware can be replicated to a certain degree, but agree that the software code would be the devils own job. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. Overall when one considers RE, one has to have a successful espionage organization that can provide some of the basic technology necessary for successful replication, else it would be like climbing Mt. Everest without oxygen, how many can manage that?
Regards,
RamachandranThe hardest thing to RE is the material science. The makeup of the alloys and composites and the processes that go into making them.
Engines are a prime example. The difference in service life of Western and Russian engines is not a few percentage points but is actually exponential. The problem is not in the design but in the Russian’s (or anyone else’s) ability to replicate the material that goes into making the engines.
Submarine propeller blades is another classic example. The Russians know the principal behind making a quiet blade but they couldn’t do it until they imported a smoothing machine made by Japan (this was one of the major coups in the Cold War.)
Makes sense. One has to be technologically at the very peak to successfully RE. The comparison between the service life of Western and Russian engines would have been true when comparing such even a decade earlier, but the new generation of Russian engines would be an even match or even better.
Regards,
RamachandranWith a really good set of photos and a good computer, you could probably reverse engineer an F-117A if you really wanted to. The problem with reverse engineering any sort of stealth aircraft, though, is the RAM. That stuff has a certain set of ingredients, so to speak, and you’d need a lot of smarts in chemistry to get it just right. The Russians had some trouble copying samples of the Concorde’s tire rubber in the 60’s for the Tu-144, and that was just a rubber compound. Of course, French counterespionage efforts included placing screwed up samples of rubber on the runway as well, so I’m sure that didn’t help at all 😀
Stealing technology and counterespionage go hand in hand it would seem. Another hurdle in the path of successful reverse engineering. 😉
RamachandranThe initial J-7A was not reverse engineered from the MiG-21F-13 it was quite lawfully license manufactured and the license package came with sample aircraft and technical documentiation. The MiG-21MF on the other hand was reverse engineered to produce the J-7C/D but not 100% and it would hardly have been possible to do this as quickly as it was done if it had not been for experience gained during license production of the F-13.
It really depends on what you mean by reverse engineering an aircraft. Do I get any technical documentation or just a working example of the aircraft? If I only got the aircraft:
1. RW’ing the aircframe? Doable but getting harder with the use of more synthetic materials.
2. RW’ing the engine? Also doable but very hard.
3. RW’ing the electronics? Not practical, you can get some good inspirations from working examples but not copy them.
Let’s put on our tin foil hat 😀 and assume, just for the sake of argument, that the Chinese pulled of the intelligence coup of the century this morning when they succeeded in stealing a F-22 prototype. I still don’t think they’d have regiments of F-22s swarming around in the sky over China in five years time. It would be a definite boost to their ambitions to produce an F-22 killer but I don’t think they can produce a copy that can hold a candle to the original in any reasonable amount of time. It wold be easyer to draw conclusions and work them into their own designs.
Agree with you on most points. Would disagree on the electronics though. With the technology at hand today, it would be pretty easy to analyse, study, and break down individual components in the circuitry and remake the circuit with ease. A working model pretty much with the same features as the original can be made.
Regards,
RamachandranThere’s a US FLANKER picture in the FLANKER Users thread. As for the Lavi, it wasn’t reverse engineered, it was developed with US assistance and stopped for reasons I can’t recall. Might have had to do with both costs and a potential competitor to the F-16 on the export market.
Why should the Israelis develop an aircraft similar to the F-16 when they were already getting F-16s in large numbers from the US for free. It would not make economic sense. As you rightly said “cost” is the biggest factor here. But, a competitor to the F-16, no in my opinion.
Regards,
RamachandranYou can just imagine a Kamikaze course during training can’t you……..
“Watch carefully class,I’m only going to do this once……”
😀 lol. But usually it is the situation that turns the sane insane, and the insane into kamikazes. 😉
RamachandranIAF variant of BrahMos likely in three years
The first missile will be fitted on an Indian Navy ship next year, at a time when air trials will also begin, to meet the needs of the IAF.
“We will need to reconfigure or reduce the booster for an aircraft. There are some design changes which need to be developed. The missile will fly on the SU-30 and though the project is expected to take four to five years, we are confident we can do it in three years,” Pillai said.
He added that the missile will be produced by 20 Indian and 10 Russian consortium companies, which have been identified. “We wanted to ensure that the joint development works, so the two countries identified a consortium of manufacturers who will produce the missile,” he said.
Under this approach, 20 Indian companies, seven in the public and 13 in the private sector, and 10 Russian companies have been identified.
These companies have made their own investments for the production, which is expected to be sizeable in numbers. The 290-km range, liquid fuel charged, 3-tonne missile will carry a warhead of 200-kg conventional high explosive.
The pre-emptive cruise missile is a weapon of first strike, being a tactical weapon. The naval version is ready for production having undergone eight tests. The army and the air force variants will both require modifications.
The SU-30MKI would be carrying three of the BrahMos, not just antiship capabilities but in conjunction with the GLONASS it could be used to decimate the enemy’s strategic capabilities. A real crippler eh…..would enhance the IAF’s attack capabilities. Good for the IAF.
Ramachandranalso old planes are still old planes even if you zero hour the airframe and put a new engine and systems in it. so what is best to do, upgrade for a few more years or get a new type to the inventory? id say it depends on the age of the plane and how good an upgrade it is, what the upgrade has and the cost.
The Israelis are pretty good strategists; they have to be. They would not waste money on something that was not viable. I would say there would certainly have been a long term plan in mind before going for the upgrade, keeping in mind the aircraft is a trainer and not a real time fighter.
I wonder…. :confused:
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