Scorpion89A couple of points from today’s news
-A female Democrat Senator (the upper house of Congress for our overseas friends) from Washington state was decrying the contract the other day on TV. She made the point (and I’m paraphrasing here) “If France doesn’t like what we’re doint overseas, militarily or in the “War on Terror” they can shut off vital spare parts.” Mind you this woman is against what the US is doing overseas, militarily, and in the “War on Terror”…but she’d worried about the French. Political grandstanding at its worse.
JB,
I was there that day listing to her along with a few other folks and what I got out of it is that behind close doors is that if the Contract stands then Congress is going to put into the Contract that the Unions of Airbus can’t go on strike if they refused to sign this part of the contract then they will forfit the contract,
By the way it was explain to me is that all US Military Manfacture have it in their contracts that the Unions that build military hardware can’t go on strike. Now I’m not sure if this is true or not. But it would be interesting to see what the Strike Happy French Unions think of this.
Scorpion89Security issues….
Sorry Rob but I dont see from what you say that it is secure.. what is stopping someone from taking anythinn from the B29 and recovering it without the parks knowledge? It was my understanding that some parts had been taken shortly before the Parks got involved to protect it? If it is secured with cameras as you say then this should not be a problem..
Well first is the location you need a certain type of boat to get to the location, next before one can dive in Lake Mead you need to fill out an application and get it approve in advance next you must sign in and out with the Park Service Station when you Dive.
As for what was taken the only items that I know that were taken and we recovered was a seat from the cockpit area and one of some parts that had come loss from the impact on the lake bottom. All of these ahve been recovered and are held in storage. What I’m to understand ius that these items will/have gone on display in the building that has the History of the B-29.
Scorpion89First an explanation…..
What I am about to ask is not meant to cause problems poke fun or waggle a finger at anyone .Just exactly how can you “maintain” an aircraft wrecksite that is in a lake??
Peter,
I’ll try to explain as best as I can understand what the Park Service is doing. First they have made it if you want to dive you have receive written permission your allowed to take all the photos and video you wish but can’t remove anything from the site.
Next with the video cameras that they have they can keep a check on the condition of the airframe as most of you know this is Man made Lake that has sort of weird water current that goes from the top of the lake to the bottom of the lake. When they open and close the Damn it cause underwater ripples and in the past it has depending on how much water is let in or out move the airframe.
Scorpion89I think I’ve grown up now Rob;)
Cheers
Cees
Yes I think we both have realize that while I think its safe to say we would like to see everything recovered, the truth is that they can’t do to what every reason.
So how goes your little project anyway. I’m still fighting the good fight with the navy but even their I have learn to let other’s help.:eek:
Scorpion89Tom,
The two different people I talk to both check the master list to see if the City had the airframe listed and both said no. As for the 50th Year Rule yes they told me that also but they where the one who also said that since the City hasn’t listed these airframes as historical Items held by the City then there really isn’t much Heritage Canada could do if the City decide to put them up for Tender. yes the uproar would be like we just saw put Heritage Canada said its hands would be tied do to the fact that the City didn’t/hasn’t listed the airframes yet.
By the way it was explain to me was say I lived in Ottawa and want to purchase the Mossie I could being that I live in Ottawa there would be nothing that Heritage Canada could do to stop the sell.
Then I ask well what if I decide after a few years I want to sell it to say an American Collector they told me that under Heritage Canada Laws that it would be very hard for them to stop a private person selling there personal items.
This is why I ask how the City has the airframes listed not if they plan on selling them now or latter. maybe the first thing you folks should do is to make sure the City has listed them and if they wish not to then ask why.
Scorpion89Ok, it’s an interesting opportunity but on the other hand who is interested enough to spend a lot of money on a B29 while there are a reasonably large number of these about. Cost, space, equipment etc. will be a tough nut to crack. These sites will probably only be interesting if a very rare or extinct aircraft is down there such as the German Heinkel 177. A Lancaster (or it should be a very historic one, such as a 617 Sq aircraft) even won’t tickle most people even. An intact Stirling, now that would the holy grail for the UK movement (and the majority outside it as well)
Single or twin-engined will be much more easier and more interesting for would be recoverers.
But, there are still people who have dreams and aim to fulfull them.
Cheers
Cees
Oh Come on Cee’s,
This isn’t the Cees I recall who cares how much it cost let go get them remember that motto:D :diablo:
Scorpion89wow, you have a real bee up the backside about the WIX forum.
Fact…. the world does not revolve around WIX nor is every keyboard enthusiast a member there.
Other forii are available. :rolleyes:
With out going to far off topic I will address this one with a quick history lesson.
Do you know the History of Wixs/Warbird Resource Group if not then here let me explain it to you.
First before there ever was any other Warbird related forums there was The original Warbird World Wide Forum which became Vintage Aircraft Forum and then it became WRG/Wixs so yes allot of stuff does and has revolved around the various forms of Wixs over the past 20 Years.
Scorpion89Well, if somebody is interested in a B29 in Europe, there is one in Holland in 30 meters deep water. It ditched there in 48, and sank after floating 1 1/2 hours, so it can’t be that damaged.
Oh man I recall that one, wasn’t their some sort of Enviro reason that it can’t be recovered, I know we discussed her on Flypast I’ll see if I can find the thread.
Scorpion89Here are a few I can think of,
Jet Pilot staring John Wayne allot of it was filmed up in Alaska
Strategic Air Command with Jimmmy Stewart we all know this movie
12OClock High filmed at a WWII Bomber base
30 Seconds over Tokyo the training stuff was filmed at Englins AFB
Dive Bomber most of it was filmed at NAS North Island
Scorpion89Does anyone know how much was tipped overboard like that and where?
Yep Off the Coast of Aussie the FAA/RN dump allot of TBM/Corsairs/F6F to complie with Lend-Lease. But then again thats another thread in itself. I think we have had many discussion on this topic both here and Wixs so you might want to try the search engine first.
Scorpion89Hehe! I don’t do underwater…. so its videofeeds, and other peoples pictures for me.
Looking at the National park service’s submerged resources section they seem to be documenting the B-29 fairly well and using it to educate people. Strange as it seems, if looting can be kept to a minimum, its almost as good as a museum.
Ric
Ric,
I agree while I may not be happy with the idea that we can’t recover it at least its being well look after, The Park System has special monitor located around the plane and if I’m not mistaken they either have or will be putting up a video live feed camera that will allow folks to see her from their computer. i do know that every six months park Diver go down and check her out from nose to tail and wing to wing.
I do believe they(Park Service0 plan on building some sort of display near the Dive Shack. this will have the history of the plane along with video and photos. I think they will have stuff for sale that will go to help maintain the plane.
I can tell you this with all the dealings I have had with the Park Service and BLM folks they are far easier to talk with and deal with then the Naval History Center:D
Scorpion89Alright a follow up question on the ownership yes I know the City owns it and other airframes my question is how does the City describe the items.
What I mean is it just like any other Motor Vechile like a Police Car or Fire Engine or is it listed as an historical Item owned by the City.
the reason I ask this is by what I’ve been told by Heritage Canada if the City hasn’t listed as an historical Item then there really isn’t much they can do yes there are rules but according to the folks in Ottawa who run heritage Canada till they(City Leaders) list them as historical items then they fall under all other Muncipal tender rules.
Scorpion89True but say this time next year nothing has been done with either airframe then will folks come back and say hey maybe we do need to rethink the Heritage Laws.
Even if it isn’t moved out of Canada I still stand behind my comments that if some Wealthy Canadian wants to purchase it then rebuild it and after awhile he/she decide to sell or trade it then they should be able. But that was another discussion and thread.
Just like your Fleet
Scorpion89Glad to hear it… It must have been one cool dive.
Yes it was I did three dive on her the first time come over the top of her is hard to explain the feeling I started at the tail and work my way up to the cockpit and then down each wing. You really only have time to be on her for about 20 minutes before you need to start you way back up.
its not hard to do the dive the problem is this if you want to recover you need to have a system in place for the Dive Team.
This is why allot of the wrecks that have been found off the Coast of France haven’t been recovered do to the the fact you need to put people down there working more then 20 minutes at a time. Yes their are ways to do it but it cost money and unless you have a major donner then it just doesn’t happen.
Scorpion89As for recoverin git we looked at allot of different ways the one that we seem to like the most was a combo of three different types the first would to us airbags to lift her off the bottom with cables attach so we could place a cradle under her. The cradle would support the Fus to the tail and out to the section between the the engines. after stablizing her we were going to attach air bags to the cradle system and use them along with the pully system on the cables to raise her it was going to take 48 to do the actual raise to a depth that we could move her to the shore.
After getting her close tot he shore we were going to us a dolly system to pull her from the water to the land. The reason for this was we didn’t want to put any undo stress on the airframe since it has been twisted in the crash and we don’t really know the extend of the damage better safe then sorry.
Oh and the cost for all of this at the time 3.5 million USD.
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