topspeedI just added at another site where similar discussion is being discussed this following.
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There is only one incident where the witness said the pilot scored more planes that he actually claimed. That was on July 2nd 1944 in battle of Ihantala 5 or 6 IL-2 kills by Lieutenant Kyösti ” Kössi ” Karhila.
Witness on the ground said Kössi shot 6 IL-2s and Kössi himself claimed just 5.
Official records from Russia don’t ( totally ) object the possibility that Kössi actually shot 6.
Kössi was officially credited with…zero kills.
topspeedI am sorry putting so much effort to bring out the model builder/ace Kössi Karhila, but if his 6 kills on one mission is true, then he is an extraordinary fighter pilot.
Extraordinary was also Lidia Litvyak as she was a female ace.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia_Litvyak
Her plane YAK-1B can also be found in the MS FSX.
topspeedSorry for being so jumpy before.
Here is what I found about the July 2nd 1944 attack by 36 IL-2s…..beautiful research done by C-F Geust with help of the russians.
Evening, Lappeenranta attack
281 ShAD, 448 ShAP:
lt V.A. Gusakov KIA, jefr S.F. Lavrishko KIA, Il-2 c/n 303812, shot down by A-A, crashed 2 km S Lappeenranta.
ml.lt V.V. Semyshkin KIA, jefr F.R. Iljnitskiy KIA, Il-2 c/n 10485, shot down in air combat, crashed 15 km S Lappeenranta.
ml.lt V.I. Lapshin DOW, ser F.A.Stolyarov WIA, Il-2 c/n 303178, shot down in air combat crashed S Viipuri.
ml.lt E.G. Sannikov OK, jefr F.K.Nemykin DOW, Il-2 c/n 9622, hits in air combat 6 km S Viipuri, belly landing near Tainionsuo.
ml.lt V.N. Suhorukov WIA, star N.H. Yeloyev OK, Il-2 c/n 3608, hits in air combat, forced landing at Maksalahti. Aircraft to depot (rembaza) for repairs.
lt M.D. Nikishin OK, V. Batizada OK, Il-2 made forced landing between front lines (“no man´s land”) after hits in air combat. Note: Nikishin HSU 23.2.1945.
281 ShAD, 703 ShAP:
lt Sharov OK, Ivanov OK, Il-2 made belly landing after hits in air combat; to depot (rembaza) for repairs.
281 ShAD, 872 ShAP:
ml.lt V.V. Sokolov WIA, ml.ser I.S. Batrushin WIA, Il-2 c/n 304804, crash-landed near own base after hits in air combat at Kolkkala.
lt P.S. Glazkov WIA, ml.lt N.M. Lonchakov KIA, Il-2 c/n 10530, crash-landed SE Viipuri after hits in air combat.
Thus 10 Il-2s were lost or seriously damaged in air combat or by A-A at Immola and Lappeenranta, and apparently claimed by the Finnish fighter pilots. It is of course extremely difficult – or impossible – to determine “who shot down whom” with 100 % reliability, and it is also a question of judgment whether a crash-landed aircraft with lightly or seriously wounded crew is considered “shot down”…
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I apologize. That data is from another site where it was discussed. It is 2 years old.
Below Kössi in his ride.
topspeedFor those of us interested in the affairs of the valiant Finns that is a shame. It was getting interesting !
Why is it a shame ? And what difference does it make even if I had lepracy and only time I flew was out of the restaurant at 02:00 AM ?
I am really an air force officer in reserve…as was my dad in active service…neither were pilots. Both did try to get into the AF pilot training…I was too tall and my dad was too blind ( not really but test results said so ). One friend of mine whose father was a Mannerheim cross holder ( as was my daddy’s uncle ) told me a story about his brother who did not get into AF…as he was too tall too…until he got a sertificate from a civilian doctor to say that he was actually almost too short to be a pilot. He later test flew the VALMET Vihuri trainer in the fifties.
I have flown around 300 hrs with 180 aircraft types in flight simulator ( also 2200 landings and take offs ) and built several radio controlled models ( also 50 drones for the AAA )…does it count ? Last summer I logged only ½ hr real air time in a Cessna 172 ( plane me and pilot choose not to fly due to excess amount of water in the fuel tanks made forced landing later last summer on a road in Oulu ). One of my designs was published in US modelling magazine as a center fold. Also all finnish model aviation mags have published my modelling stories around 25 years ago, but still. Last one was in 2004 ( I made an unlimited racer design and test flew it too ). I have flown 150 flights of R/C Me-109 Gs and around 50 with P-51D…and to me the flight dynamics are very similar with what I am experiencing in flight simulator ( what ever this is worth ).
I am very happy Finny for your extreme experience in flying aeroplanes…really. I grew up in an airforce academy area and my grand daddy had sold his farm lands to have the installation ( which now works as a refugee camp ) in 1928.
I also have a great respect for F-C Geust who actually has been on one other site where this case was discussed…and all the russian/soviet losses have been accounted for. There is a fair concensus that this IL-2 shooting really happened ( in my opinion ).
I am not going to continue this fruitless discussion with “topspeed”. Reading the above you will understand why he is banned from every Finnish aviation discussion forum, except the one gliding site, obvioously. And, to make it clear, he may have done his mandatory military service in the Air Force, but he is not a pilot, and never has been one. I am, for whatever it is worth. And I was not referring to the Il-2 case before, just in general terms…
I am very happy for this decision, cause I would not have had any more energy to carry on.
Happy landings !
BTW: Here is “my” Fokker D-XXI in Wredeby…where I assume you fly your Tuulia RF-4D. In case you are the same person who harrasses me on all the finnish sites.
topspeedBefore C-F Geust started making his trips to the Russian archives there was nobody who had done that, at least outside Russia. I do know also Mr Geust personally, and his story is entirely different. There always are legends of wars, and the Finnish – Russian one is no different. But I suppose this is not the forum to discuss that particular subject. We could continue this topic on the Finnish FlightForum – but I guess it won’t happen, as “topspeed” is banned there, as well as all other Finnish aviation forums….
So you have to bear in mind that that I have two relatives of which other was ace and the other Mannerheim cross holder in the AF and my godfathers mothers sister was married to to the chief strategist of FAF during WW II…I am an AF reserve officer myself ( I can carry on this list untill I make everyone bored…). You have to ask yourself a question..in case the NKVD archives don’t show that lieutenant Kyösti Kössi Karhila had shot down 6 soviet IL-2s on one day…that who can you trust…a finnish infantry sergeant and the man who was there flying a Me-109 G with wing mounted 20 mm cannons…or C-F Geust a novellist.
I understand the concern of yours, because if the kills of Kössi were confirmed it would make him the highest scoring ace in the history of air combat in a single sortie ( and he would have to be awarded posthumously the Mannerheim Cross ).
Here is the written text in finnish about his five ( possibly six ) kills from himself from his diary ( based on it anyhow ); http://seura.fi/historia/sotahistoria/havittajalentajien-assa/
INSERT:
Juustilan yläpuolella Karhila havaitsi kuusi Il-2 -maataistelukonetta. Hän avasi heti tulen. Lähimmästä koneesta tuhoutui sivuperäsin. Se syöksyi alas. Seuraavasta koneesta Karhilan laukaisusarja rikkoi osan korkeusperäsimestä. Vihollislentäjä oli mennyttä miestä. Kolmas kone sai osuman runkoonsa ja syöksyi maahan.
”Neljänteen sain osuman vasemman siiven tyveen – kone räjähti kappaleiksi. Viidenteen osuin rungon oikealle puolelle, mistä irtosi isoja kappaleita. Kone kallistui oikealle ja meni kierteeseen. Tilanne oli ohi, sillä ammukseni loppuivat.”
The sergeant who saw a finnish Me-109 firing down 6 Il-2s was very certain of what he saw…I specifically asked that how many of these IL-2s he got down…and he said kaikki ( all ). It was pretty quiet for a while after that. I met this sergeant in hospital about 20 years before Kössi made his memoirs based on his diaries. I called him ( capt. Karhila ) after reading the book and said that I once met a guy who saw this incident and he said you scored them all…he said he had lined up for the last one but run out of ammo. So it is possible that he fired few rounds, but saw no effect and headed back. This would then explain the sergeant word all of them ( kaikki )…better.
The reason that I believe this sergeant 100 % was the maneuvre how the FAF pilot moved from another plane to another…I tried it in ( co incidentally in IL-2 ) simulator . Those IL-2s in simulator ( game ) shoot back….so I ditched after 4 Il-2s ( as they were firing back unlike the IL-2s Kössi was shooting ). When I mentioned this to Kössi ( the maneuve he suppsosedly had done ) he said exactly ..that is how it went.
There is no way a sergeant of the infantry could have made it up unless he had really seen it happening…not with all the details.
My original question to this war veteran in Oulu ( OYKS ) hospital was; ” Did you ever see finnish aeroplanes in the skies over Karelia ? “. He said first; ” There were more of those red star aeroplanes ! “. It actually took a while and he was almost like thunderstruck as he realized that he actually did see something extraordinary once. Blue svastika emblem Messerschmitt chasing 6 IL-2s flying close by their look out post on a hill. I would not have forgotten that either.
Have a good day ! :eagerness:
And I am not totally left out from all finnish aviation sites…I comment on the Purjelennon Pulinajakso every now and then.
…..and my deepest sympathies to the people in Lappeenranta railway station ( karelian refugees ) who these Il-2s attacked, the Il-2 pilots and gunners and the two heroes…infantry sergeant and airforce captain.
topspeedMannerheim Cross ? This must refer to Field Marshal Karl Gustav Mannerheim, accomplished military leader and architect of the stunningly effective organisation of Finland’s defence during the Winter War against Communist Russia ?
Topspeed, if, at any time, you pass by the Mannerheim statue, Place a flower on behalf of England in memory of this great man.
It is all too easy to forget.
Yes John I will do that for England and it’s most charming HRH queen Elisabet II.
topspeedThere is no reason to believe the Russian archives, official ones, should be especially falsified. For example C-F Geust has had access to them, and indeed has made a great job documenting facts about the war on the Finnish front. And there is a completely different reason to why Karhila was not awarded the Mannerheim Cross. Having known the man personally, I have a great respect to him, but again, if someone (not necessarily just Karhila) tells something before his death, and even writes in his autobiography, does not turn that into a verified fact.
No but at this spesific case there was an infantry sergeant who’s sightings match 100% ( 99% at least ) to what Karhila tells in his book.
I was able to interview the russian specialists before C-F Geust started to make pilgrims to NKVD archives and I was told they missed helluva lot more planes after WW II in the finnish front that finns had claimed by the AAA and AF. My connection was the new gadget called world wide web.
Also notable is that german Luftwaffe with colonel Kuhlmey’s FW-190s and Ju-87s operated from Finland at the end stages of the Finlands struggle for independence.
I’ll put a small list of the planes USSR had during WW II.
Soviet planes:
LA-5 number built 9920
LA-7 5753
YAK-1 8700
YAK-7 6399
YAK-9 16769
MIG-3 3172
IL-10 6166
IL-2 36 183
I-16 8644
I-153 3437
PE-2 11427
TU-2 2255
LAGG-3 6258
SB 6656
lend/lease planes:
P-39 Airacobra 5007
P-63 Kingcobra 2421
P-40 2425
Hawker Hurricane 2952
Spitfire 1331
A-20 2771
B-25 862
Just to mention several of them ( not all ).
* bolded operated on the finnish front.
topspeedHK-1 Spruce Goose.
XF-11 for single seaters !
topspeedAssuming FSX makes an accurate model. That is a big assumption…
I agree that the level of accuracy is not always the best in many models, but for the free models Eurofighter Typhoon and F-35 are the best with few others like Dh Vampire and J-35 Draken and J-37 Viggen…the free Jas Gripen J-39 sucks big time.
PC-6, Mustangs ( several models ) and T-6 + OV-10 Bronco are ok too.
Good example of a upgraded model is the Mig-25 Foxbat. I was wondering the F-11F excellent kinematic performance after engine out after take off ( able to pull two Cuban 8 halves…and glide to a nearby airport…in EFATO ). Then I tried the Mig-25…it was able to pull 3 loops ( one had 12 000 ft radius ) one Cuban 8 half and a large radius final approach, Rafale ( free ) has a same problem..it is too good to be true.
topspeedOf course there were mistakes, genuine, honest, mistakes…..but mistakes all the same.
Let me say firstly that, again, I am not questioning the courage of any of the aircrew, nor does looking at the base ‘numbers’ have any real influence on the outcome of the air battles; we all know what happened and what the world looked like at the end of the war, nothing will change that!
But, I find it very interesting to examine the accepted facts and claims of those involved; how do you ‘confirm’ shooting-down five aircraft in ‘seconds not minutes’? Do you see each aircraft crash or are you too busy trying to bring your guns onto the next target? And if you don’t see it crash how can you be sure that it did?
And how does an observer on the ground see five aircraft shot-down? Did they circle around him?
Imagine how long it takes a Spitfire to make one pass at ‘airshow’ speed; now imagine that Spitfire making that pass at combat-power chasing an Il-2. Imagine it shooting it down right in front of you. Now imagine that is the first of five that are shot-down one after the other ‘in seconds’; how far away will the last one be when it is shot-down? Will you, as an observer on the ground, even be able to see the last one shot-down?
I do not really wish to question this particular engagement, it matters not to me one way or the other, but these are the sort of circumstances that ‘confirmed’ aircraft victories are made; immense pilot workload, split-second decisions during engagements lasting only tens of seconds but covering vast area in three dimensions, and few outside observers able to see the whole engagement. Add to that the doubt of shot-down aircraft descending through cloud, crashing into lakes or the sea, or crashing behind enemy lines and what evidence are you left with for ‘confirmation’?
From ‘Battle-of-Britain day’ when the claims were, I think, 185 enemy aircraft shot-down, the actual total, verified post-war turned-out to be about 35!
You have to remember that Finland was once part of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE that soviets nor russians ( especially ) never really acknowledged and in Winter War they tried to annex it once more to mother Russia.
End stages for finnish involvement in WW II was predecided by Josef Stalin as he launched the greatest land battle in the Karelian Isthmus in human history in 1944. Pilots were so stressed that even Hans Wind ( premier aces ) had trouble to even ask his wing man to a photo recce mission which he considered to be a plain suicide.
As the railroad hub in Lappeenranta was being bombed by 6 IL-2s Kössi ( Kyösti Karhila ) was scrambled and headed to meet them, but they had already delivered the bombs and sprayed all their ammo in the hub as it was packed with people trying to get away from the assaulting soviets. This was an easy pray for experienced reserve captain ( possibly a lieutenant back then ). He explains this in his book much later than I actually had the pleasure to talk with this sergeant who on that day was on a look out with binoculars on a hill ( vaara ) with his men ( usually group of seven ). He saw the whole spectacle with his very eyes. I was very curious because I had by then read all the stories about the FAF aces and this kinda incident was never recorded. I was pretty moved as he detailed the aerial maneuvers the pilot did to earn his daily bread. This matches 100 % what Kössi tells in his book.
THERE IS ONE INCONSISTENCY IN THE TELLING OF THE WITNESS AND THE PILOT STORY. The sergeant told he shot down all of them…as Kössi tells ( in his memoirs ) he run out of ammo as he tried to shoot down the last one…had he fired few rounds on the sixth I have no info about.
Kössi had no wing man and no one to verify the story with so writes just few probables in his log…had he written 5/6 he would have been beaten up by his fellows ( let alone 6/6 ). He writes it down ( in the book ) only few years before he dies…as he wants to set the record straight. Also the rivalry was ongoing about the glory and plain cash ( which came with the Mannerheim cross ) for the highest scoring aces.
It must have tasted bitter for Kössi to have no witness for the action as he was the only high scoring ace who did not get the medal he was set out to earn as he joined the AF; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_World_War_II_aces_from_Finland
Finland had 200 Me-109s in the Isthmus in 1944 ( possibly only few airworthy ) and USSR had 200 000 aeroplanes in the war and 2 500 in the battle.
Here is the relaxed looking aviator Kössi in his younger years in front of a Curtiss Hawk.
I assume he flew the extra 20 mm cannon pods in the Me-109 as he was the only one who did not object them in the first place. “Illu” Juutilainen was strongly against them as those made the plane slower.
topspeedI share with you a collection of photos of the most produced Soviet fighter of all time, including some rare photos of the plane with Allied markings. We’re talking about Yakovlev Yak-9, the first Soviet aircraft to shoot down a Me-262. To see a full report and the photos, visit the link below:
http://aviacaoemfloripa.blogspot.com.br/2011/01/yakovlev-yak-9.html
Best Regards.
You have mixed YAK-9 and YAK-3s in the pictures. Furthermore YAK-9 was not nearly as much produced as was the IL-2 and IL-10. Numerous yes.
topspeedI recently flew the XF-11 in the MS FSX simulator ( sorry ) and it was the maiden flite destroyed 44-71155 with 3 000 hp engines driving huge contras.
I reached the altitude on 62 000 ft and gained in a dive the speed of 820 mph ( which is a bit rich ).
The lame non contra is still claimed to have flown 720 km/h and gained 13 500 meters altitude.
I’d like to believe the double amount of props actually could have made the difference and really taken the XF-11 into 62 000 ft. That has been reached by a german research plane few years ago.
topspeedNo they did not, there is probably as much exaggeration in he Finnish claims as there are in all the others. Actually, during the quiet phase of the war, around 1942-43, there probably was even some deliberate falsified claims, I have been told by people who have really dug into the archives, even the Russian ones after the collapse of Soviet Union.
Russian archives…great. We know for sure that they did not report them correctly…nor did they report the gulag deaths. Archives there are…that much is true…kept by NKVD.
Certainly there could be mistakes. I’ve been told Illu Juutilainen shot down a german FW-189 as he tought it was twintail P-38…that never even operated on that front. It is sad.
I am 100% sure that ( highest scoring reservist ace ) Kyösti Karhila shot 5 out of six ( 6 ) IL-2s on one day ( in a matter of few seconds than minutes ), because he tells it on his book before he died and there is a witness to it on the ground ( or was ). This is just a good example how the one man tactic didn’t give him the Mannerheim cross because he worked alone without a wingman.
There are certain elements in Finland now that try to put all the hard work of the pilots down by sciencing the events with “bullet proof” soviet documents. All the Spits, Mustangs and Lightnings they shot down were either Yak-9s or FW-189s. We must have had few blind airmen then….keep going and do what you have to do as russian in Finland. I know what I know…and no one can change that view or standpoint.
I hope no one was offended.
I once heard a terrifying story what a squadron of IL-2s actually do to a colonnade of marching weary soldiers…and it ain’t pretty. This story teller was a master sergeant ( also long dead by now ).
I can also confess that I asked from Illu Juutilainen’s wingman while he was still around ( master sergeant Mauno Fräntilä) , that is it possible that some of your kills were signed by your “boss”….and he grinned like Chuck Yaeger and said ; ” It is possible yes ! “. It does not mean that it happened. His wife ( who is also dead by now ) told me Manu ( Mauno Fräntilä ) was just a bad shooter…with 5 kills. He once told me a move how he scored a Yak fighter, which makes me think he was a bit better pilot than has been so far let to believe.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_189
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topspeedLet’s put it in that way:
F-16 entered service in 1978, F-35 first flight is from 2006.
About 28 years difference, superior to the one between F-100 and F-16 itself.
It would mean a lot of things are changed along the way, not only in electronics and materials but also in military doctrine.
I see some comparations have been made between Mig-29 and Mig-35, not taking in consideration the most obvious difference between the two: fuel carried, passed by a measly 3500 to 6500 kgs.
It means it have changed its own role: from a frontal aviation fighter with an exclusively A2A role to a long range fighterbomber .
Same is happening with almost all planes around, also the Flankers that5 were born as long range fighters have continuously incremented their own range at every follow up version.
Now we have to consider how those changes have affected the planes performances: putting conformal tanks on a F-15 change radically its own performance and characters, same happen with f-16 with added tanks.
It is not just about added weight to be counteracted by higher engine outputlike someone have stated, also drag change but above all the wing loading: more weight and same wings area will radically change the way your plane perform .
Lifting body like the one of F-35 would certainly help but the high instable configuration , light wing loading of the earlier F-16 is just another thing.
Yeah !
If you wanna ride a cannonball go fly an F-11F ( in a stimulator ).
F-16 is genious design no doubt about…better than Mig-21 perhaps.
In a stimulator the F-35 is able to cruise at 50% power with half fuel and 4 000 lbs internal load and take off at 60% power ( if a long runway ).
I don’t know it that is impressive, but it hardly burns any fuel.
topspeedTo be honest I would treat the actual numbers themselves with the greatest scepticism; I think it is almost universally accepted that ‘overclaiming’ was extremely common, even where there was no deliberate attempt to exaggerate the number of victories, and the reality of ‘confirming’ many victories was simply impossible.
I’m not questioning the courage of any of the aircrew involved but when specific air battles have been examined in detail what is usually found is that the total claims, or ‘confirmed’ victories, of the aircrew that survived to make claims following a sortie, greatly exceed the actual losses suffered by the enemy.
I recall soviets lost a thousand more ( large amount anyway ) planes that were not claimed by the finns. Dunno what happened on the german front.
Landing accidents ( due blood loss ) and a ruptured oil/fuel cable could have caused a crash the engaged pilots ( flak ) did not see while they were fighting.
I think we lost a large amount of knowledge when most of out warriors died before no one interviewed them. There are hardly any left.
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