Indian1973I saw a photo of a long nosed M2K with RBE2 in another thread. Looks like its possible to ‘pull’ a nose and make it larger if need be.
I think its quite possible to get next-gen radar into the M2k/lca/f16 sized noses. the APG80 is an example.
desijatt, maybe F-7 production is continuing or they have a large buffer of unused planes. PAF suddenly picked up 40 overnight 😮
Indian1973victor what is JAWA ?
FSED – full scale engg design ?
iirc ADA itself was setup in 1982 or thereabouts (!) so
obviously they were in no shape to design even a mousetrap in the 80s.
Indian1973the 100 cr =1 LCA figure comes to $21.7 mil using a exch rate of
Rs 46 = $1. so that estimate is still current. munitions, spares and LDP will be extra obviously and cannot be compared to export deals which tend to bundle everything. national deals also include no tech support or training price.
Indian1973I dont know if this was posted here. Tribune India May17, 2004
info. Some info is outdated – 251 testflights reported last week and Saras has already flown.
*****
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2004/20040517/edit.htm#7
HAL targets outsourcing
Expects Rs 4,000 cr order for LCA
by Sridhar K. Chari
HAL Chairman N.R. Mohanty
WITH the first flight of the first Nasik-produced Sukhoi-30 MKI expected by the end of this year, the LCA programme proceeding apace with 214 flights to date, export sales of the Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH) and Dornier DO 228, and with several upgrade programmes on hand, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) Chairman N.R. Mohanty feels that HAL’s credibility with the Indian Air Force (IAF) and other global aero-companies is at an all-time high. Excerpts from an interview:
Q: What is HAL doing to mitigate the attrition level of the MiG 21?
Quite a lot now. As you know, the IAF flies three variants, the FL, the M, and the Bis. The COFAA (Committee on Fighter Aircraft Accidents) report had indicated that 40 per cent of such accidents were due to technical defects, 40 per cent due to pilot error, and 20 per cent bird hits. We concentrated on the technical area. Wherever there has been any dilution of standards, I have been simply ruthless. Two senior managers were actually terminated. Even the IAF has tightened things quite a bit. And now of course, the Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) deal for the Hawk 100 has been signed.
Q: There were reports that HAL had left out some crucial calculations regarding the tooling in the Hawk deal, and consequently, India had to end up paying more?
A bogey, coming from the UK. Not true at all. Just like last year’s bogey about us using “spurious” spare parts on the MiGs.
Q: What is the status of cooperation with the Russians on building a new “fifth-generation fighter?”
The Russians are keen on doing something to rival the Joint Strike Fighter/F-22 Raptor. And we are someone whom they have identified as a primary partner. It involves a lot of money though. It is also a question of evolving something that suits both of us. They have already started making presentations to the Indian Air Force in this regard.
Q: The LCA prototypes/technology demonstrators have completed more than 200 flights. The IAF is looking at an interim purchase of a fleet of single-seat fighters. How is the programme holding up?
It is actually a pleasure to see the ADA (Aeronautical Development Agency) and HAL teams working as one towards making the LCA a success. Earlier team-work problems were largely due to personality clashes. It is a very homogenous effort now. 214 flights have been completed, and Prototype Vehicle -2 (PV2) should take off soon. We are just waiting for the actuators (devices which move the control surfaces) from Moog, which should come shortly. Work on the Limited Series Production of eight aircraft has already begun. And there is the expectation of a Rs 4000 crore order for 40 LCA, including eight trainer versions. As for the interim purchase, various options are currently being considered. Nothing has been decided.
Q: How do you think Indian aviation is positioned to take advantage of the high precision, stand-off range and real time, “sensor-to-shooter-to-commander” links that are revolutionising military technology?
The key is to develop a good synergy between DRDO labs, academic institutions, and industry, both public sector and private. We will not be able to take on everything and do it ourselves. We have to explore co-productions, joint ventures, as we are already doing. The ancillary private industry, especially in electronics is coming up very well. We have outsourcing capacity, and as on March 31, we have seen more than 862 firms with orders worth Rs 98 crore just for last year – and that is without material cost included. In the current year, we have targeted Rs 200 crore of outsourcing.
Q: The Saras 14-seater Light Transport Aircraft (LTA) being developed by the National Aerospace Laboratories (NAL), with HAL involvement, appears to be getting delayed. Can you give us an update? And is there a market niche for such an aircraft?
High speed taxi trials are already going on (at the HAL airport). We should see the first flight by the end of May. And there is definitely a market for the aircraft. But I would like to see more support for it from our civil aviation industry. More than Rs 70 crore is coming from CSIR (Council for Scientific and Industrial Research), and we have pitched in with quite a bit, for the wings, the landing gear, and three other work packages which HAL is responsible for. More support will make a big difference to the programme.
Q: There is a plan for a replacement for the HPT-32 basic flight trainer for the IAF…
Yes, the project proposal has been finalised, and it should get approved soon. The HPT-32 is a piston-engined trainer, and what we are planning is a turbo-prop, with tandem seating. The IAF training command (headquartered in Bangalore) has already approved it, and we should see clearance from Air Headquarters soon.
Indian1973IAF can neither afford nor does it have the expeditionary ambitions to justify a large fleet of heavy twin-engine jets that everyone seems to love blindly these days (flanker, ef, rafale etc).
only single engine next-gen jet is JSF and thats what most of
the smaller EU and far east allies will go for. It will be a great a/c for those who dont want a domestic aviation industry, not so great choice for others.
Indian1973> little to no advantages over types the IAF will have in service
> for years at the time LCA will reach IOC.
let us assume IOC (sqdn service) is 2012. At this time the IAF
will have in service:
– Mig21Bison (until 2017 per Defmin’s statement recently)
– Mirage2000H (no talk of any upg, so they will probably be flogged till 2015 atleast)
– JaguarIS (these will be upg’ed but the weak engine and limited airframe shall be as is even in the 39 new build ones)
– Mig27upg (again a older engine and serviceability design even if they will be upg’ed)
– su30 flanker
All told about 300 Mig21s will be gone most by 2010, last 100 (bisons) by 2015-17.
32 Mirage2000H will reach 30 yrs by 2015, going going gone.
about 80-100 Jags again definitely by 2020 they have to go.
Mig29s (75) will again need to go by 2020 thats for sure.
100+ non-upg Mig27s will need to go.
I am open to ideas what can IAF BUY on the market to support
a retirement of 600+ airframes in a decade span. and it better cost $25-$30 mil and most of that money should be spent in domestic industry rather than making others rich or being prone to sanctions.
LCA will do the Jag/Mig27 CAS work , the Mig21/29 air defence work and the 2-seater could be adapted later for the Mirage2K’s PGM delivery role. Its the right choice for india and its environment.
we have been through this many times. Since india now controls the airframe and avionics , gaps in capability can be made up with selective imports but no more wholesale feeding of fat profit margins for others. the nose can made longer or fatter, the airframe can be stretched and all the user has to do is walk across the street and ask and provide some money.
wrt cost of operations, serviceability and uptime the advantages
wrt Mig21/27/29 are quite evident. it should be better than Jag and at par or better than the M2Ks currently in IAF service.
IAF at some point may go in for the much tom-tommed 125 mirage deal but there aint no way they can buy 600 of these for strike role..its not even necessary.
so the LCA has a secure future in india 🙂 it has also laid the foundation for other projects like IJT and in future the MCA. same way ALH laid the foundation for the LCH they are workin on.
People are always willing to sell products and selected knowhow but other than domestic fighter progs there is no way to gain design capability to do it from scratch 🙂
Indian1973the bellwether of PRC aerospace capability is Pakistan as the only relatively sophisticated export customer.
the first thing the PAF seems to do is replace the cockpit avionics, radar and nav-attack instruments with more expensive western ones. they’d probably replace the engines too but lack of choice there.
china is as much a beginner as india when question comes to export prospects & technologies of 4th gen a/c. I think they have tested some digital FBW in JH7 if I recall Crobato’s posts correctly but again that has never been exported. triplex digital on J-10 is as “uncertified by 3rd party users” as the LCA fbw. ofcourse I am sure both work but only the host countries know for sure the pros and cons 🙂
Indian1973> parameters of the lca are not altered
they will be if the FC1 and J10 params are altered 😉
please provide some details on FC1 and J10 to indicate
which LCA params need to be altered to what.
Indian1973> AFM editior Alan Warnes has declared FC-1 as 4Th generation.
> You cannot challenge that
there again we see the consistent tendency of certain people not to be confident in themselves but constantly look for “shabaashi” from foreign editors 🙂
said editor in the same issue makes a whopper of an error labelling the indian LOH program (proposed purchase from external sources) as a hi-alt vehicle only. the reality is the LOH will be used as a scout helo all over the place, the Dhruv as utility & light attack and the new Ardigen engine Dhruv as utility in the high himalayas. this is well documented yet he makes such a simple error.
my confidence in mr. warnes is not very high right now. the FC-1 and PAF articles look like cut-n-paste from a propaganda handout.
PAF has claimed most credit for “designing” the Fc-1 🙂 poor Chengdu relegated to a secondary role 🙁
Indian1973PRC has never made anything remotely close to the J-10s claimed capability. on paper it should be able to annihilate the JH-7 and F-7 types with no sweat.
So lets face it, J-10 is PRCs first attempt at a 4th gen fighter. Its miles ahead in sophistication and specs to their past projects.
So without “certification” by independent observers and presentations of foreign media & experts are we to believe all the materials in the web which arent even from the manufacturer but collected by people from various sources formal and informal.
I am just applying the same “standards” sought to be applied to LCA 🙂
May I read the J-10s weekly progress report please :p
Indian1973http://www.ainonline.com/Publications/asian/asian_04/d3_turbomecap18.html
excerpts:
The Indian government has now confirmed an order for 318 of the 1,000-shp TM333-2B2 turboshaft for Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.’s new Dhruv twin-engine helicopter and an undisclosed number of the -2M2 version to re- engine the Cheetah (the Indian version of the Aerospatiale Lama). In return, Turbomeca has agreed to increase the offsets associated with this deal by transferring more work to Bangalore-based HAL, which will now produce the engine’s turbocharger and other accessories, including the fuel systems. The Indian company will also be securing repair licenses for the engines.
At the same time, HAL and Turbomeca are stepping up their efforts to jointly develop the Shakti as an Indian version of the new 1,200-shp Ardiden engine. This 1H version of the Ardiden will eventually be the standard powerplant on the Dhruv and will be retrofitted onto the earlier production examples that will enter service with the TM333-2B2. It is still set to complete its first testbed run in mid-2005.
HAL now has an 11-percent stake in the overall Ardiden program, and the engine is also a candidate powerplant for Eurocopter’s EC155, the Bell Agusta AB139 and the Kamov Ka-62. Indian engineers are now based at Turbomeca’s headquarters at Bordes in the southwest of France to assist with the development.
Indian1973how is this little thing going to train pilots with dummy bombs and missiles ? the wings dont look too strong to me.
Indian1973US has some tailless UCAV demos flying already. they are going to use it for sure in future. I cant find a pic of the dassault ucav at the moment to
check.
Indian1973stay safe SOC. good to see you back.
Indian1973shame to see the Chal2 and AS90s axed.
Some of the Type42 will likely be retired as the Type45s arrive.
the pricetag being around $1 billion each, maybe they will build
less than 8 of the planned Type45.
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