Spitfire91. Sure, but the question is more is it that the Rafale offer is still very expensive or that UAE have unrealistic expectation.
2. Well, if we have the same issue as in Marocco, we really deserve to lose again.
My answer to (1):
Dassault have an unrealistic expectation that UAE will pay a price giving them excessive profit. From Reuters:
“There is a shared frustration in both the UAE and French leaderships at the apparent arrogance of Dassault,” the source said.
“Rather than using the strength of the bilateral relationship to close the deal out they are attempting to use it to hold out on pricing and a deal structure that hasn’t changed in more than a year and that has been significantly bettered by all competitors.”
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/11/16/uae-warplanes-idUSL5E7MG2H620111116
These people are not fools. Do you go to a souk and buy a carpet knowing that the seller is insisting you pay far too much? No, you walk out of the shop and buy a different carpet from a different seller who does not insist that you pay an unrealistic price. The RFP to Eurofighter could be seen as UAE walking out of Dassault’s carpet shop and walking into Eurofighter’s shop to see exactly what they can offer.
Spitfire9If UAE, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Oman and Quatar ends up with the Eurofighter, while the Europeans cut their orders in half, does a name change makes sence?
Not to mention: possible production lines in India and Brazil
Brazil?
Spitfire9if the Rafale is so swing-role, “omni-role” whatever you want to call it, why did they need two different types of Mirages and Super Entendards to perform some of it’s missions when the Rafale is supposed to be capable of doing so anyway?
If you have air superiority and have wiped air defences, why would you not use other aircraft in your inventory apart from Rafale if they’re cheaper to operate and can do the job?
Spitfire9Honnestly, even on french forums, we are still wondering what is wrong with this *********g negociations
I can think of two reasons straight away:
1 Price. If the buyer makes it clear that he will not pay the price asked but the seller refuses to reduce the price to an acceptable level, you get no deal.
2 Proper enquiry management. The contact on the seller’s side dealing with the potential sale should not be changed a number of times during the course of negotiations as has happened here.
Spitfire9>> If India chooses Typhoon.. what would Brasil do?
A:
Choosing its own F-X2 fighter from Rafale, Gripen NG, and Super Hornet.
The second-hand Mirage 2000Cs for BrAF need to be retired and replaced at the time of 2013~2014. There is simply no time for BrAF to re-open F-X3…….
What about if UAE snubs France because of the refusal to lower Rafale price / uncoordinated management of the sales program / disaffection of Crown Prince Mohamet after meeting an incorrectly briefed Sarkozy… and ends up ordering Typhoon? Would Brazil be interested in surplus M2K’s from UAE? I imagine F-X2 could be scrapped if replacement M2K’s could be bought from UAE at a reasonable price, thus saving the Brazilian government a few $US billion.
Just my 2 cents.
Spitfire9IMHO the bad editing is far more of a crime for something being thrown out to millions of readers (and potential customers).
Agreed. How could you make such a blunder and not spot it when you proof-read the piece on your PC before uploading it? That’s very amateurish. Shows they don’t do basic ABC checks. Hardly the way to project an image of quality for the organisation.
Potential customers: do you think they will read Eurofighter web-based PR/advertising (I have no idea)?
Spitfire9Perhaps the information about Lybia ?
The Rafale was the only plane to fly above the country before the massive cruise-missile strike from USA and even after, the only plane to fly without support of Growler.Of course, I would be in the marketing team of Eurofighter Gmbh, I would try to paint a different picture.
What’s the point of trying to paint a different picture? No buyer with billions to invest will lack the resources to check whether the claims being made are true. When they are told the claims are false it just damages the credibility of the company making the stupid assertions.
Had Eurofighter emphasised the qualities of Typhoon where it had an advantage over Rafale (towed decoy etc) and argued that their absence in Rafale was a great drawback, that might have been fine. Instead they chose to make statements about Rafale that the facts probably or definitely do not support. Had it been Typhoon that had a wide range of A2G systems integrated (and Rafale very few), I think they probably could argue that there were things Rafale could not do. Since Typhoon has very limited A2G capability, Eurofighter should not be surprised if this pointless piece of Rafale bashing backfires. Dassault could respond (if they chose) pointing out the very real A2G limitations of Typhoon in Libya which meant that it was impossible for Typhoon to undertake the full spectrum of missions.
Spitfire9I think Brazil just wants to look like they are buying something.
I think the air force wants Brazil to actually buy something. Anything that was on the shortlist would be very welcome compared to nothing, I would imagine.
Spitfire9I agree . What a pack of BS …
Cheers .
From P10…
ATTRACTIVE USER COMMUNITY: The Eurofighter Typhoon user nations includes the owner of world’s largest oil reserves/largest oil export country and some of the most influential EU/NATO countries with G8 membership.
So what! If the world’s largest producer of iron or barbie dolls bought it, what difference would it make? Had the USAF ordered a few hundred, agreed, that would be worth shouting about.
More from P10…
It is fact that a large majority of the Rafales deployed for the operations were twin-seaters – another demonstration of the lack of capabilities in their single-seater to successfully complete missions.
Don’t like this way of trying to knock the opposition. Negative campaigning is best avoided, especially if what you say may not be true. If they are going to put things like this out, they need to list the reasons why single seaters lack the capability to successfully complete missions.
IMO this is a stupid , misguided piece of defective marketing propaganda.
Spitfire9“Gérard Longuet, the defense minister, was more prolific. “We are in the final stage of well advanced negotiations. The slightest frown can yield hundreds of millions of euros, “he said to some French journalists. “The nature of trade between the UAE and the manufacturer is such that a request for a cons-offer is part of the business tactic. “Everyone is in his role”, he summarized. Still confident of a positive conclusion by the end of the year, the Minister announced a dream of an announcement on December 2, UAE ‘s national day”
I am starting to think that Dassault believes that the UAE is so sold on its product that it is merely a matter of persuading UAE to come to its senses and to accept that Dassault wants a price giving them a nice, fat profit on the deal.
I think the words of the French Defence minister above bear this out. I think he is badly mistaken and I think it quite foolhardy of him to say what he said. The message he is putting across is that UAE want Rafale and any contact with any other manufacturer than Dassault is purely to pressurise Dassault to drop its price and is not to be taken seriously. To imply that your potential customer cannot be taken seriously is NOT a good idea and I suspect that his words will be received badly by UAE.
UAE has had 3 years of negotiation with Dassault. If it has not come to its senses and agreed to pay the price Dassault wants for its “must have” product after all that time, it’s not likely to do so now. There is a danger that UAE believes that it is impossible to persuade Dassault to give a reasonable price and the utterings of the French minister simply encourage that belief.
The way I see it is that Dassault (with the help of M Longuet) have talked themselves out of an order, have talked UAE out of exclusive negotiations with themselves and have pressurised UAE into looking seriously for an alternative to Rafale.
If Eurofighter are easier to negotiate with, it’s possible UAE will say that dealing with Dassault was such a big headache that they prefer to deal with Eurofighter. Additionally, Typhoon has its attractions for UAE – a better TWR than Rafale (a reservation about Rafale) and will have a more powerful radar than Rafale (another reservation about Rafale).
Announcement of a Rafale order on December 2nd? Keep dreaming, Monsieur le Ministre.
PS I would like to see Rafale get an export order but I think Dassault have possibly lost this one now
Spitfire9That request looks to me like an improvised attempt to put dassault a bit under pressure following the India’s bids which may give them the impression that Dassault made a bigger effort in India than for them
There is a simple truth: a buyer will not pay more than the highest price he is prepared to pay; a seller will not sell below the lowest price he is prepared to accept. An informed buyer may not be be prepared to pay substantially more than what he believes the seller is prepared to accept; equally an informed seller may not be prepared to supply substantially below the highest price he believes the buyer is prepared to accept.
It’s a risky game for Dassault to hold out for a price that they believe is the highest the buyer will accept (if they are). You don’t get 99% of the profit for getting 99% of a sale. You get nothing.
Spitfire9Emirateans wanted Rafale with uprated engines and a more powerful radar…
.. so maybe its for Rafale to increase its capabilities ?
Mmmm… Typhoon has more powerful engines and a radar coming that has more raw power than Rafale can field (more TRM’s). Could it be that UAE might seriously be considering buying Typhoon? Apart from anything else, UAE would not be paying AESA dev costs.
Spitfire9I think it’s a move to force Dassault to put the cost down. However since the Rafale is cheaper, I don’t know how much they can force dassault to lower its cost.
Nic
Rafale may only be cheaper if Dassault quote their best price. If Eurofighter quote their best price against an inflated Rafale price, what happens then? Does UAE abandon the whole thing? They have perfectly useable fighters in their arsenal, don’t they?
Spitfire9I’ve already done cost projections with my company at a 10 year horizon and I can tell you it looks nice on powerpoint presentations especially when backed by people who are looking serious and professional but the hard truth is that there is a lot of hot air surrounding this kind of exercises.
There is no way the cost calculation can be determined precisely enough which leaves a lot of room for political/arbitrary choices despite what is actually claimed.
I suspect that all that could be determined with confidence, given all the parameters, is whether one appears likely/very likely to be much costlier than the other. Sounds like the bids might be too close for that to happen.
Spitfire9A Rafale order from India could pave the way for further orders but I don’t think UAE will order anything now or next year because they don’t need new fighters so urgently .The Block60 will do the job.
If India does choose Typhoon and becomes a full partner, which area of the world would be their domain in terms of marketing, selling and supplying Indian-built Typhoons? Would their sales and marketing skills be up to scratch (compared to other Eurofighter partners)? Additionally, how enthusiastic would HAL be about having to produce even more aircraft if India did secure an export order? I get the impression that HAL is not short of work as it is.
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