Spitfire9😀 Could have an Impact on MRCA.
Perhaps if Typhoons won in a scenario where the rules of the game should have put them at a considerable disadvantage…
Imagine Pakistanis coming out saying they beat typhoons.
I thought it was not rare that the aircraft that was on paper the weaker won in DACT.
Spitfire9I would say it is highly likely that India will be able to provide independent weapon integration to other countries.
The way I see it, that is a definite plus for the winning manufacturer in terms of further sales: more weapons integrated / the possibility of new customers having the weapons they desire integrated relatively cheaply in India (with the work done in India rather than Europe)
Spitfire9I agree, however Dassault may feel they have a better product, so I suppose they may have decided to cut price only just to still come out cheaper than the Eurofighter. Why would they do any more effort if they don’t have to?
This is all speculation but let’s say Dassault could have made a reasonable profit quoting a price 10% below Eurofighter (and the price difference was decisive) but chose to make more profit by quoting a price only 5% below Eurofighter. They are going to look very stupid if they then end up losing a contract they could have won.
Of course nobody will ever know. If Rafale does lose, Dassault will never be told that they would have got the deal had they quoted 5% less.
Spitfire9Super Hornet isn’t as capable in the strike role as Rafale/Typhoon? :confused:
I didn’t actually make that claim but IIRC correctly, I believe that Rafale combat radius + load are comparable to F/A-18. To me that makes it a capable strike aircraft. Please do correct me on comparative performance if I’m wrong.
Rafale as an interim measure doesn’t make much sense for the RAAF.
Leasing would mean either taking over AdlA aircraft (& they don’t have spares) or Dassault building extra, knowing they’ll have to take them back.
Rafale can’t use some of the RAAF’s weapons, so weapons would have to be bought especially for it, which would not be usable on the F-18 or on the F-35 when it arrives.
The Super Hornet was an entirely logical choice for an interim aircraft. Issues which are minor in a new type which is meant for long term use are major in an interim type.
I think France would have been able to put together a leasing package for 24 Rafales + weapons for 5+ years. Dassault could have increased production and the Armee de l’Air forgone some deliveries. Aircraft + weapons would be used by Armee de l’Air at lease end. Would there be extra costs for leasing a type to be withdrawn at the end of the lease? Yes but – remembering that the F/A-18’s were bought because F-35 was late – Oz would have had the option to hand them back when F-35 was available or negotiate a purchase if it was decided F-35 was not needed.
Spitfire9The only plausible alternative to the F-35 at this point* is more Super Hornets.
* = my emphasis added
I agree.
As opposed to dumping truckloads of money on an aircraft that is totally overpowered for the present zero-threat environment, and whose capabilities will cease to be impressive roughly around the same time that Indonesia actually starts to loom as a genuine potential threat to Australia, which will also be around the time that Pax Americana will really start to fracture in the face of not only China, but all the other myriad rising powers around the globe, which will also be the time when global resource crises – water, food, oil, energy – really start to bite.
Interesting appraisal.
Spitfire9But seriously though. I honestly reckon the Typhoon would be a perfect fit for the RAAF…
Pity…
Too late IMO.
I wanted them to lease/buy Rafale as an interim/permanent measure due to F-35 delay rather than buy F/A-18’s. Would have done the job of F/A-18 well (strike) and of Typhoon (A2A). Having 2 types (Typhoon and F/A-18) to do 2 jobs that could be done equally as well (almost, at least) by one type would be a little extravagant, to put it mildly.
Late addition: they might actually have ended up passing altogether on F-35 if it were too delayed/too expensive and they already had an aircraft capable in the strike role. IMO F-35 will suck an inordinate amount of money out of defence budgets and risk reducing the overall defence capability of countries.
Spitfire9The reason the Saudi manufacturing plant is delayed is they just can’t attract local Saudi staff.
The actual infrastructure/plant isn’t too difficult to chuck together. (apologies to those actually tasked with it as they would disagree:D) the staff and experience is the real problem.
Delayed, you say. It’s never going to happen, is it? The idea must have been to get this plant up and starting to run so that when the initial 24 Typhoons were delivered more would be coming on stream from the local plant. SA will be stuck with a squadron and a half of Typhoons for years if they still intend assembling the other 48 in the order themselves.
Spitfire9Text quoted:
bilateral meeting between Prime Minister Manmohan Singh and French President Nicolas Sarkozy in Cannes on the sidelines of the G-20 summit could not take place on Friday thereby leading to speculation that France has lost the race for the `48,000 crore MMRCA deal.
Isn’t this just to do with France choosing to upset India rather than China if a meeting with Indian PM would upset China?
By the way, that earlier report citing a Dassault board member saying that Rafale stood to be 60% of the cost of Typhoon is starting to look a bit dumb, isn’t it?
Spitfire9From Livefist Blog: http://livefist.blogspot.com/2011/11/mmrca-bids-open-lowest-bidder-in.html
EADS Cassidian released this statement shortly after the opening of bids: Our offer for India’s Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) tender is backed by the four Eurofighter partner nations as well as their respective aerospace and defence industries. It is competitive and designed to deliver maximum value to India. Our proposal to make India a full partner in the Eurofighter programme is fully supported by Germany, the UK, Spain and Italy.
They might as well have issued a statement saying “We have nothing new to say.”
Spitfire9Apparently the bids are being opened at 0900 GMT.
It’s a bit after 0900 GMT. All quiet on the MMRCA front!
Spitfire9Is the opening of the bids going to be a public ceremony with lots of fanfare, a ministerial speech etc? Or will it be a low key affair behind closed office doors? If Dassault and Eurofighter representatives are going to be there, they presumably know at what time the bids are to be opened. Is this in the public domain?
Spitfire9I wonder how the news will be released? – will Eurofighter GmbH crack open some champagne if they win (is that too cruel) or Will the French unfurl a banner at Waterloo station if they win!
Are they going to announce a winner 4th November? Is it as simple as opening both bids, going to the last page, announcing the grand total cost from each contender, then shaking hands with either the man from Dassault or the man from Eurofighter? If the bids are sealed who (apart from the respective OEM’s) knows exactly what they cover? Or did each manufacturer release the exact text of the bids to the buyer in advance, witholding only the price?
Spitfire9What about falling squadron numbers and all that?
Well the author sounds confident about F-35 being deliverable to India by 2015, as signaled by LM. I think 2015 is a first.
From the article And he wants IAF to see those indications and stop MMRCA process. Dont you think IAF will need bit more than just indications from Washington to halt that process, if they were interested in F-35 and that is a “if”.
I don’t know where the author’s confidence in F-35 comes from. LM has spent years making predictions and then failing to meet those predictions where F-35 is concerned. The $US 65 million flyaway cost is just another prediction and a discredited one already. Haven’t LM been told to stop using that figure by the DOD or some other government agency?
In any event MMRCA brings TOT. With that comes the possibility of putting Indian fast jet design on a solid footing and the possibilty of establishing a “stand alone” design and manufacturing capacity. AMCA will be a poorer aircraft without the TOT that the MMRCA candidates can offer. One does not want the IAF rejecting the aircraft in 10 years time on the grounds that it does not meet performance specs, does one?
Furthermore any further delay will mean even more old MiG’s dropping out of the sky.
Spitfire9Captor E.
Finmeccanica » Selex.
OK, thanks.
Spitfire9The Ministry of Defence has confirmed it will put the cash into an assessment programme which could pave the way for a cutting edge new piece of technology which would make the Eurofighter Typhoon jet the best in the world.
***
Business minister Mark Prisk said the development of the technology could create “Europe’s first and only second generation radar” which would lift Typhoon’s stock with countries looking to buy the jet, including India which has a £6 billion requirement for 126 aircraft.
http://www.lep.co.uk/news/minister_reveals_6m_bae_boost_1_3922551
Finally, more words of progress. Great news!
The Ministry of Defence has confirmed it will put the cash into an assessment programme which could pave the way for a cutting edge new piece of technology which would make the Eurofighter Typhoon jet the best in the world.
…
Ben Wallace, MP for Preston North and Wyre, said he had met with directors of Italian firm Finmeccanica which is looking to develop the radar with BAE last week to discuss the plans.
What radar would this be with just BAE and Finmeccanica involved?
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