I love these charts made by people who haven’t even touched real thing.. And I also love the high scores in the mission effectiveness of the F-35, while the real aircraft can barely take off and land and there is practically no mission it can safely perform..
I stopped considering anything in the evaluation once I saw the ‘selection committee’ gave a procurement cost of around $125 million for an F/A-18. That alone demonstrates their evaluation cannot be taken seriously. Bit of an echo of the Norwegian farce.
It seems the Brazilian President is being suspended. According to the UK Channel 4 news coverage I saw, power passes to the vice president but the vice president is under investigation. Next in line is the leader of the lower house, but same thing – suspended. Next is leader of the upper house… but that person is under investigation. Not sure if the people who drafted their constitution foresaw any more than 3 replacements for a suspended president!
If there is widespread corruption in Brazil I wonder if someone corrupt, somewhere in the system was connected in some way with the Gripen deal and what would happen if it came to light that money had been paid. Could the deal be halted or is it too late for that?
From the F-35 discussion thread:
When I read through this http://www.fmn.dk/temaer/kampfly/Doc…s-20160509.pdf
I found this
“The Joint Strike Fighter supplier has offered a globally based logistics solution that is characterized by a close collaboration with other users, and where national ownership is limited to the aircraft. Components and support equipment with more is part of a global Pooled option, which is handled by the Joint Strike Fighter program. The concept of a global pool solution is designed to minimize the cost of that many users can share a relatively small number of components and relatively less equipment. The lower capital tied up in inventories of spare parts and equipment, among other things reflected in lower acquisition costs.”
Makes a load of sense to me to try to devise ways of cutting costs for a very expensive tool in one’s arsenal.
operating cost has reached levels that air forces are either standing down, or introduce a tier 2 air force,
with only a handful of pilots having skills beyond bare minimum to be certified
I would suggest that inefficient organisations like the military look at ways of managing their affairs differently rather than simply suggesting closing swathes of capability down instead of altering the way they do things to make better use of the funds available.
As posted in the European F-35 sustainment costs thread, the following has some great official info on the Danish selection.
Some great info there but pretty straight forward rankings given the F-35 now presents the lowest risk, was the lowest cost to acquire, second lowest to sustain and has the best survivability and mission accomplishment rating of the three candidates. Even factoring in the reduced number of F-35 compared to other contenders it still presents better overall value over the life of Danish service.
Mmmm…
Procurement
28 x JSF =15.3 billion DKK (546 million DKK each)
38 x F/A-18 = 30.9 billion DKK (813 million DKK each)
???
In case nobody concerned is aware of it, USA 2017 defence bill includes the procurement of 16 x F/A-18E/F Super Hornet aircraft for US$1.35 billion*. Guess how much each costs? Less than the price shown for an F-35A here.
In other words, the geniuses at the Danish MOD have added more than 50% to the price of an F/A-18. The Danish MOD has been making numbers up to favour JSF.
In a May 12 announcement, the Danish Ministry of Defence recommended Denmark purchase 27 F-35s at a price of 20 billion Danish Kroner, or about $3 billion. The Danish parliament will now have a period to review the recommendation before making a final decision.
The Danish Ministry of Defence can recommend Denmark purchase 27 F-35s at a price of 20 billion Danish Kroner, or about $3 billion as much as they like and I’m sure LM would be pleased to follow their recommendation. What does the Danish Ministry of Defence recommend is paid for all the extras needed to be able to actually use them?
The recommendation, first reported by Denmark’s TV2 News, will be followed by a public comment period of 30 days, said one of the people, who was not authorised to speak publicly. The final number of jets could shift during this period.
If confirmed, the decision will mark a setback for Boeing, another U.S. weapons maker that mounted an expensive last-ditch marketing effort for its older F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, and the four-nation Eurofighter Typhoon consortium that includes Airbus Group.
News of the recommendation emerged as doubts were raised over a crucial parliamentary committee hearing scheduled for Friday.
All three bidders have been invited to present their jets, but Denmark’s Conservative Party said Lockheed and Boeing had been told by Washington not to participate. A spokesman for the U.S. embassy confirmed they had been advised to stay away.
Airbus Group said it still planned to attend and called for a “healthy and transparent” public debate.
Although viewed by many as an outside contender, Eurofighter appears to be gambling on parliamentary support for a European solution after a bitter spat between U.S. rivals. The German government is expected to throw its weight behind the bid by sending defence state secretary Katrin Suder to give evidence.
http://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/…o/2777410.html
Not quite game over yet, it seems.
I don’t understand this:
‘All three bidders have been invited to present their jets, but Denmark’s Conservative Party said Lockheed and Boeing had been told by Washington not to participate. A spokesman for the U.S. embassy confirmed they had been advised to stay away.’
Why would the USA not want the 2 possible US suppliers to present their jets?
Indeed, you can be deal adviser to Dassault, and advise them to scamper off.
Just like Several test drives of your fav Renault Car model in a showroom, does not lessen or increase your chances of getting a lemon piece delivered. So if you indeed get lemon piece, and If there is no lemon law to protect you as customer, you are screwed financially.
India as a customer has right to set terms and conditions to cover its losses, if a defective equipment gets delivered.
And the negotiations are still on what kind of financial penalties can be imposed on Dassault Aviation Company which is making the combat plane if the performance was unsatifactory.β
Perhaps I misunderstood what they meant by performance. If they mean performance in the sense of doing what you are contracted to do, my mistake. If you are contracted to do something and do not do it eg you supply defective spares or supply spares outside the amount of time stipulated in the contract, you can be expected to pay if you don’t do it. If this is a govt to govt contract for everything bought regarding Rafale, that’s one thing (French govt is responsible for non-performance by the supplier), if the govt to govt deal is just for off the shelf aircraft with initial spares after which India needs to deal with Dassault, that’s a different thing. I guess there are industry norms for dealing with items that are not covered by the contract.
As for Dassault, they are not in the position of other manufacturers with products that will go out of production unless more orders are secured soon (F/A-18, Typhoon, for example) so I don’t think there is any sense of urgency to conclude a deal unless there’s a nice, fat profit for them. The longer this goes on, the more acute the need for India to order something so the pressure to get a deal is not on Dassault IMO.
Mr. Parrikar: “We will finalize the deal sooooooooooooooooooo~~~~~~~~~n!!!!”:stupid:
And the negotiations are still on what kind of financial penalties can be imposed on Dassault Aviation Company which is making the combat plane if the performance was unsatifactory.β
The performance of Rafale is known. Either you like it or you don’t. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it.
I hope Russia joins NATO before Finland and Sweden do.
Think of the economies of scale if Russia bought F-35, too! I’m sure generous ol’ LM would pass all those savings on to their customers π (rather than exploiting its quasi-monopoly position :apologetic:).
I think they have not got things right at all. $500 million per aircraft over 30 years sounds far too high. That cost to purchase and use a fighter for 6,000 hours equates to $80,000+ for each hour it is flown.
Denmark Nears Final Decision On Controversial Fighter Jets
Denmark appears ready to spend a potential 100 billion kroner ($15 billion) a piece on up to 30 F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft from US producer Lockheed Martin.
The Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter jets look likely to be chosen ahead of Boeingβs Super Hornet, the other contender for the Danish contract, despite Boeing’s aggressive advertising campaign in Denmark.
Not sure who does their maths but don’t seem right to me:
According to the Radio24syv report, the total cost for 28 fighter aircraft over a 30-year lifespan including equipment and maintenance could run as high as 100 billion kroner ($15 billion) per aircraft
I know F-35 ain’t cheap but $15 billion to fly one around for 30 years? π
US House Armed Services Committee adds 14 more Boeing F/A-18E/F for the US Navy in fiscal year 2017.
Plus additional F-35. Extends the time for F/A-18E/F to find export orders before the line closes.
Sputnik news:rolleyes:, what I read from this article is that Russia strongly dislikes any Swedish (Finish) cooperation with NATO. Gripen is perhaps a “partial NATO” aircraft rather then directly from the “devil himself”
Weak journalism. They don’t check even basic, widely known facts before publishing: ‘The contract with Brazil stipulates 36 fighters and all of them will be built locally.’
Production of JF-17B Dual Seat Aircraft Launched