I would suggest that a flight test engineer lecturing about climate change comes across as arrogant. If a climatologist told me that my analysis was wrong, I think I might query his qualifications. I speak as a flight test engineer of 27 years standing.

Rutan’s language rather gives him away – his use of “alarmist” is a tell-tale sign that he has made up his mind, and will almost certainly produce data to prove his point of view.

What seems to be lacking in the climate change/global warming saga is pure unadulterated data that we could use to make an informed opinion.

My opinion? I’m sure something is changing in our climate but are humans causing it? I don’t know but we have detrimentally affected our environment before so we can do it again.
The good side to this carbon offset/green efficiency is that has produced many energy and fuel saving by-products. 3 litre 200bhp cars capable of 50mpg would have been a pipe dream only a few years ago.

I don’t know what you’re on about now. I’m sorry to have wasted your time as you’ve clearly put a lot of thought into this but your points come across as incoherent rambling and nonsense. It appears that I am expected to answer your points (and was apparently cornered :D) but you don’t answer mine. Many of suppositions you wrote were shot down in so many flames it wasn’t true but if you insist on basing your philosophy on made-up quotes then I’ll take Andy-in-Beds’ and charliehunt’s advice and leave you to it.

Sorry snafu352 and other European supporters, I did what I could but in the face of so much nonsense I give in.:)

#209 and #210m illustrate vividly just how far apart europhiles and eurosceptics are. Both stick doggedly to their cause and both find equially compelling “facts” to support their cause which the other then trashes. None of it qualifies as opbjective or intelligent debate.

Well pardon us!

If you find something in another’s argument which you know to be factually wrong would you not correct it? If someone uses a quote to support their point of view which turns out to be falsely attributed, would you not use that fact to argue against them?

By the same token, steven_wh uses an argument that the EU suppresses dissent but a simple Google search reveals that Bernard Connolly’s book is still available and no attempt was made to stop publication. Some suppression of dissent! He was dismissed for a conflict of interest between his job at the time and the subject matter of his book. I would imagine that if I wrote a book rubbishing the practises of my employer, they might take a similarly dim view.

A few pages ago I wrote a post with three examples of positive aspects of EU Not a comment, nothing at all. Now I can draw a conclusion from that but instead I am asked , fairly forcibly to reply to a nonsense post by someone who appears to susceptible to a conspiracy theory built up from half-truths and false quotes.

Which side are you on again?

Federalism – I’m not sure I see much wrong in Europe having common governance on those things which are common between nations. Certainly harmonization of many of the rules and regulations has meant business and trade between EU countries is so much easier. Much easier than trade between the UK and a very protectionist USA.
The famous “United States of Europe” will not happen in my lifetime but maybe in the future. I’m not sure I see anything wrong with it anyway. It won’t change anyone’s birthplace or culture so what is there to fear?

I was just about to post this when I read Andy’s incisive post. I was going to delete mine as seems a bit superfluous now but I’ll leave it for other’s to get steamed up over.:diablo:

Once again a trashy piece of EU propaganda is trotted out.

Or what we on this planet call the truth. I’m sorry (well not really) it doesn’t fit your paranoid conspiracy theory about Europe but there you are.

My work here is done….:diablo:

Full marks for inventiveness. Much as I thought. Any excuse is better than none. Your sources of information are obviously not the same as mine and all the other millions of EU sceptics.

Every one of my comments can be backed up with FACTS. The fact that eurosceptics disagree is that they seem to have an aversion to FACTS.

Like snafu352 says FACTS; they really do get in the way of a good argument don’t they.

It was only a matter of time before the Monnet quote came up. It was from 1952 . Allegedly. Even if he had said it, it was different world that he was talking about. A world which had a just come from a devastating war in Europe, it is perhaps no wonder that Monnet saw union as a way to peace. A peace incidentally in which he played no small part in achieving.

However,the uncomfortable fact as far as Eurosceptics go is that the quote is not true. It has been proved to be a false quote and taken out of context. A Google search of a few seconds will give you the facts you need. If you are happy to allow yourself to be deceived by falsehoods then there isn’t much any of us can do.

Eurosceptics seem to me to be big on imagination, rhetoric and bluster but precious little in the way of facts.
It’s no wonder Farage has a following from that camp.

Oh and spare yourself the embarrassment of replying. It isn’t necessary.

Here you are. Your truth stood on their heads or whatever you did. :confused: I don’t know if your statements were meant to be facts or were of a facetious nature.

The EU is not at all in crisis
You’re right, I don’t think it is.
The Euro is not on the brink of collapse
No, not any more
The Greeks are not rioting in the streets because they ain’t got any money
Er..yes they have. The Greeks were rioting because they disagreed with the measures the government were forced to take. There have been a lot of riots in Greece.
The Spanish ain’t rioting in the streets because they ain’t got no money
Yes they did during a day of action by European unions (not to be confused with the European Union) against austerity measures. There may have been other disturbances as well. Interestingly, none leaders of the strikes in November give any hint of being anti-EU. The protests were against their own governments.
The Portuguese ain’t rioting and they ain’t got no money
See Spain above
The Irish ain’t rioting and they ain’t got no money
No, you’re right. There were no riots in Ireland.
The EU ain’t printing money by the shed load to prevent a Euro collapse
You’re right, they aren’t. The ECB introduced measures of QE to restructure bank debt. The EU doesn’t “print money”. The EU, Euro and ECB while linked are separate entities.

The fact that the EU accounts have not been signed off is another Euromyth.

By the way, I’m not expecting a reply to points I made a few days ago. The deafening silence in response to them has spoken louder that any reply could ever do.

So you want me to reply to your post as “we” are all waiting and yet no-one seems willing (or, as I suspect , able) to answer the points I made?

I asked for clarification of your post 166 and nothing was forthcoming. I asked if you meant that forum members or the EU in general were deceitful – no reply.

It looks like you’ll have to wait a while longer on a reply.

Re 169

Derekf

You are right. It isn’t that difficult.

So why don’t you try it for once? 😉