Hi,

“I am still confused”

Well, I am always confused so take it lightly;-) I guess 7seas should probably answer this one since he has more knowledge about all that stuff but I´ll try anyway:

“Will Herakles replace EMPAR in follow on French AAW ships? Could it be retrofitted in place of EMPAR in the Forbin frigates, or in place of the Arabel in Charles DeGaulle?”

Maybe on the first one, highly unlikely on the second and possible on the last.

“Can Herakles be integrated with Smart-L/S1850M?”

Why not but what why should it?

“Has Herakles replaced Arabel in the export market? Has Herakles supplanted APAR?”

Arabel is older than Herakles and probably will not see anymore orders. Arabel is a passive phased array radar where Herakles is an active one. Herakles is also designed to be the sole radar on an Aster equipped ship. It therefor has a longer range and handles air and surface targets and both Aster versions. Arabel is much shorter ranged and always needs an additional LRR.

APAR on the other hand is designed around the American missiles (ESSM / SM-2). I can´t imagine a missile – radar combination where those two radars together would make sense.

“Why is Herakles mounted so low in the Formidible class? Why do the French FREMM models depict Herakles mounted so much lower than EMPAR in the Italian FREMM models? Is the Herakles antenna array heavier than EMPAR?”

Actually I don´t know the weight of the Herakles antennae but it is possible that it is heavier. In the end however I guess it all comes down to the question of what you intend to the ship to do. As a primary AAW unit the Horizon class need an air-/surface-search/missile uplink radar set as high above the see as possible for a longer radar horizon. That is however not the case in the Fremm and Formidable classes.

“I wonder if Thales promoted an entire line of integrated masts, with Herakles at the high end (FREMM), the Smart-S Mk2 in the middle (Schelde Combatant 12717) and MRR at the bottom end of the market (GoWind 200)?”

Might be. However I guess that there are so many radars with similar or overlapping capabilities promoted because all market segments are to be covered, e.g. ships with no or limited AAW capabilities (like OPVs or FPBGs), with AAW system that need there own illuminators (like the US or British systems) or with radars that are centered around a special AAW system. Also note that some of the radars development were started before many of the parts of Thales were merged together.

Regards

Hi 7seas,

“a small correction. Inside the mast there was no Heracles projected but a kind of fixed phased array.”

Mmh, ok didn´t know that. But at least at the last (meaning not this year) Euronaval Heracles was considered inside the mast module. See attached pictures (aren´t those yours anyway;-))

Best regards and all the best for the new year.

Looks like a cross between the Visby and the project 2038.1 Steregushchy.

Regards.

Hi Hammer,

“would you mind detailing what is real and what is your speculation on the drawings you posted above?”

Well since foto material is quiet sketchy at best (e.g. I have never seen an official line drawing of any FREMM incarnation, if somebody has one I´d greatly appreciate to recieve a copy;-)) and since non has been build yet I guess all versions depicted are fictional. However the French and Italian ships depicted are my take at the actual planed ships (the French ships show the design evolution). The Greek version at least is an official Thales design. The English version is completly fictional and is not of my own work as you might have noticed.

Glad that you like them. If you want to see some more visit:

http://s90.photobucket.com/albums/k279/shipbucket/

Regards.

Hi,

the article gave the max speed with a COPAW drive with 30 knots. Though there was another article were the ship was called ” Seabased Asymmetric Warfare Ship (SAWS)”: 99,80m / 18m (max beam, delta hull) / 3,90m (max 6m) / 2.500 – 3.000 tons / COPAW or COCOW (all electrical based on the HTS technology) with 32 – 36 knots sprint speed / crew: 43 + 6

Weapons and equipment: 1 medium gun (first 76mm later 57mm), 4 MLG-27, 8 (self defense) + 16 (strike or tactical) mk-41 vls for ESSM, VL Harpoon, VLA, land attack missile (or similar), 2 MASS, 2 UAVs, 3 USV (1 x 9m, 57 knots, e.g. Chris-Craft Launch 28; and 2 x 6m, e.g. Medine II), 2 UUV (e.g. Seafox etc)

In an even later article the design (now called multi purpose attack boat of the future) shrank a bit to 72,50m / 13m / 3,55m / 800 – 1.500 tons / 40 knots. It last all of the vls launchers as well, retained all other equipment though.

Regards

Hi,

“Is there any other shipyard in the world that takes a position as such ?”

Well if you think about it I can´t imagine e.g. an US yard building and an Export LCS with the Aster 15 / Herakles system or a Russian yard building a Spy-1F Talwar (a little far fetched I know;-). It is just that I have never hear anybody say it out aloud.

“Are they extreme smart or extreme dumb?”

My guess is that it is a negotiation strategy. If it fails and the Greek insist on US systems I guess DCN will still be more than happy to sell them the design, don´t you think?

Anyway I couldn´t resist the temptation. Hope you like the drawing.

Best regards.

Improved FREMM

Hi,

thanks 7seas for that picture. A pity that DCN has already denied offering that ship to Greece:

“DCN declines Raytheon options for FREMM
France’s FREMM design authority DCN has told Jane’s that there are no plans to develop export variants of the Franco-Italian FREMM (Fregate Europeenne Multi-Mission) surface combatant armed with Raytheon’s Standard Missile SM-2 or Evolved SeaSparrow Missile systems.Instead, DCN will stick to the MBDA-supplied Aster family of missiles as the key anti-air warfare (AAW) weapons system for any export FREMM variant.The statement follows the display by Thales of computer animations at recent naval exhibitions in Athens and Paris, showing a notional FREMM variant equipped with an AAW suite developed by Thales Nederland in conjunction with Raytheon.
[Jane’s Navy International – first posted to http://jni.janes.com – 13 December 2006]”

“It seems strange, that they could mount APAR, Smart-L and such a VLS and helicopter on a ship smaller than Zeven Provincien…”

Well not that much smaller than de Zeven (144,24 m / 18,80 m / 5,18 m / 6.050 t) or Sachsen (143 m / 17,44 m / 5,0 m / 5600 t) actually but therefor wider:

Displacement: 5600 tonnes
Length: 137 m (though I have read 139 m elsewhere)
Beam: 19 m
Draught: 5 m

“Nice looking boat but the one in the picture looks a little short on VLS cells?”

Hard to tell wether the pic shows 16 cells or more however the French version will be able to hold 32 cells (16 Aster 15 and 16 Scalp Naval). That is the same number as on the F124 and with ESSM you have the advantage of quad-packing as 7seas said.

“How do the French expect to exchange two 7,000t AAW destroyers by something the size of FREDA???”

Well that is the real question, isn´t it. Though it will definitely not be the ship shown above. Guess if you take the Forbin and eliminate the extra 76mm guns, mount only 32 cells and go with the lower mounted Heracles instead of the high mounted Empar you can fit the remaining gear (S1850 and PAAMS) into the FREMM hull as well.

Regards.