Is it? For all we know the military was told to be content with the Il-76 because it was felt to be the politically opportune solution.
The main political decision was the An-70 to get buy the Ukranian ‘loyalty’ and not the IL-76. It was because of this Ukrainian alternative that Tu-330 never saw light. If not they could have developed the Tu-330, based on the commercial Tu-204, to the same level as An-70. The Tu-330 had the same 4m dia fuselage that all want to go crazy about as An-70 undisputed advantage.
As it is, the Il-476 is the wrong airframe with the right engines whereas the Y-20 is the right airframe with the wrong engines.
I’m very glad to hear this and truly believe the forum have moved on.
Last years debate was on the lines of —- IL-76 airframe is bad, IL-76 wings are ancient, IL-76 engines are bad, IL-76 fuselage is narrow, IL-76 aerodynamics is gutter, IL-76 production is wrong and almost everything related to IL-76 was bad. The only thing good was An-70.
But the two points you made are good. If by airframe you mean the fuselage diameter, then I’m in full agreement with you. This is something I too wanted to see changed on the IL-476 and increased to 4m in dia. But then, IL-476 was a product that came out on tight budget contrary to the popular belief that it had unlimited and enormous budget.
The C17 is an airlifter !!!!
It has to carry a ramp to quickly offload your payload in remote (unsupported) airstrip. This cut a large section in the back of your plane that induce a large amount of drag**. You can’ts compare it with an airliner fuselage and its cigar shapes which are NLF oriented*!!!
Those words of wisdom and common sense with the bitter truth about an airlifter!
But the problem is that commonsense and facts disappear when it comes to the IL-76. This double-standards, when it comes to IL-76, is what I wanted to expose.
I have difficulty envisioning a future light combat aircraft program from Russia, particularly when Yak-130 already partly fills that niche. A medium aircraft in the vein of F-35/J-31 etc. seems rather more likely. As for the powerplant, a single AL-41 solution has numerous benefits:
— minimising program cost and risk
— allowing for more efficient (and thereby potentially more comprehensive) future engine development
— reduction in engine cost from greater economies of scale ripples throughout PAK FA/PAK DA/LMFS programs.
— reduced maintenance requirements and operating costs (compared to two-engine solution)
— improved training and logistics
Yak-130 will not be able to fill that niche of a true light single-engined fighter. Yes, I agree twin-engined medium fighter is what is more probable and MiG has been on it for long as a successor of MiG-29s.
The points regarding the cost and commonality though may look good, but will be counterproductive. If we are talking about a real single-engined fighter in the 5-7ton empty weight category, then the better option is the RD-33 class which weighs over 1,000Kg but below 1,100Kg. When we change this to the larger AL-31/41 class we are looking at no less than 1,800Kg engine and thats an unwanted weight of over 700Kg being added to dead weight. In addition to it this penalty there will also be the penalty on fuel consumption. Moreover the RD-33 class might cross the 11t thrust barrier before 2020 if RD-33MK SeaWasp development is taken into consideration and where it stands now. Klimov’s dream/future is for the 12t thrust class RD-XX engines and they will probably reach there by the time LMFS is ready to fly.
Against this, a dual RD-33-class powerplant offers only the following:
— somewhat greater thrust (~20%)
— potentially superior weapons bay arrangement (see: J-31 single bay vs. F-35 split bays)
I did not mention the RD-33 class just because Klimov is part of RAC-MiG, but more so because I think it is the more suitable engine for light-medium class fighters. And then as you very rightly pointed out, there is the huge advantage of having tunnel to create a better weapons bay by employing two engine scheme. The two advantages you mentioned are indeed big advantages when compared to employing a single, but larger Al-31/41 class engine. This first and foremost limits the scope of internal weapons bay.
The advantages of AL-41, particularly in the context of an aircraft that is intended to be affordable, would seem to be overwhelming unless there is a requirement for a new ‘medium’ engine independent of LMFS, e.g. for future UCAVs, or unless this new engine is to be created and funded specifically as a joint Indo-Russian project to fulfil India’s indigenous engine requirements.
MiG-29s are going to continue production for sometime and so will the RD-33 series. So the development on engines will continue as we saw with the RD-33MK. As for UCAV, there is the SKAT from RAC-MiG, which few years the Sukhoi guys torpedoed and halted its development. But seems like the project is coming back. If I’m not wrong, it will be using a non-AB version of the RD-33 series.
One of the Americans’ mistakes with their 5G plans was to not share engines between F-22 and F-35 as they did with F-15/16 — indeed, F-22 production might not have been truncated had they done this. In any case, Russia should not repeat America’s mistake (or its own mistake from last-gen…) simply for the sake of MiG/Klimov or whatever.
I consider the debacle that Amrikhan faced with the fighters is due to lack of a Govt design and production house. If Sukhoi (the bad, greedy boy in Russian aviation industry) was left to play as a fully independent player not under the Govt control, we would have been seeing the same stuff repeating in Russia, with Russian tax-payers money getting dumped into a bottomless pit on development and production. Greed and money combination is highly corruptive. The end result will be that the budget would skyrocket to such an extent that there would be no other option other than to cut the numbers like that we saw with the Raptors. If the cost was not so high for the Raptor, I bet, they would have rolled out more. JMT
For those who have not heard the Vikramaditya songs by his/her crew, here is it.
Vikramaditya Rock Song
http://ziifile.com/o3kyydyzoc3u/Vikramaditya_Rock_Song.mp3.html
Vikramaditya Song (likely Official)
http://ziifile.com/116gssr8gvht/Vikramaditya_Song_(official).mp3.html
…the vocals are not available fully. Either there was some mike problem or they intentionally mimed it and is keeping the full wordings for their big day in India. Its typical Navy type, anyone hearing it will recognize the usual navy band and instruments.
This was the first upload, its not working for me as it says no file found. Is it working for any of you?
http://www.filedropper.com/vikramadityarocksong
http://www.filedropper.com/vikramadityasongofficial
RN release, seems like all other ship-spotters are on ‘vacation’ en mass. The headline containing “help” is a PR material, but still good. It is for ‘helping’ Vikramaditya in these busy channels that INS Trikand is leading the group.
HMS Monmouth helps mammoth aircraft carrier through Channel
16/12/2013
While the Royal Navy awaits delivery of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers, the company of HMS Monmouth has had a taste of things to come.The 4,900 tonne frigate met up with the newest Indian aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya – weighing in at a massive 45,000 tonnes and helped her safely through the busy English Channel.
Originally built for the Russian Navy as a modified Kiev class aircraft carrier, called Baku in 1987, India procured her in 2004 and she was accepted by the Indian Navy in a commissioning ceremony in November 2013.
Following successful sea trials in July 2013 and aviation trials in September 2013 the carrier began her long journey to her new home of India escorted by auxiliary INS Deepak and Talwar class frigate INS Trikand.
HMS Monmouth’s Operations Officer, Lt Cdr Chris Hollingworth, said:
“I was impressed at the scale the Vikramaditya, which displaces twice as much as HMS Illustrious.
“As the 65,000 tonne Queen Elizabeth Carriers are half as big again we will have quite formidable ships to operate in the near future.”
With HMS Illustrious due to visit India over Christmas the interaction with the Indian’s newest ship could not have been more timely. INS Vikranaditya also paid a visit to Portsmouth Naval base during the summer.
Celebrating her 20th year in commission, the escorting duty is HMS Monmouth’s last commitment before return home to Plymouth to prepare for a major refit throughout 2014.
click for larger images
@ Jinan,
There is one more ship that fits the bill and was one of my favorite due to its beaching ability as well as a docking facility. Pr.1174 Ivan Rogov. Its a shame Russia did not go for it and instead wasted time and money on the Pr.11711 which is now lying idle at Yantar incomplete. Pr.1174 would have met the requirement including that 900 troop capacity but fail short on electric propulsion.
INS Vikrant CG
Employing Twinblade’s words… but the preview is different. How to modify that?
I am sure the Russian Navy wish they would have been able to kept the ex-Gorshkov.
I think they are still cursing the political negotiator who gave Varyag to the Ukraine… that is what they would have liked to keep and finish.
True and some of them have also expressed openly during various occasion that it was difficult/sad to part with the ship for he had become their child over his days in Severodvinsk. For men outside of uniform this was the view and for the men in uniform, it would have been the same in addition to loosing a chance to own a new operational carrier that had over the past 24 months demonstrated over 200 days of ‘deployment’ covering over 19,500 miles.
Unless the agreement with Russia was negotiated in and paid for in ‘Rupees’, domestic exchange rate fluctuation doesn’t the change the dollar value of the acquisition. A depreciating currency doesn’t make imports cheaper.
:rolleyes:
You may be getting your salary in USD or Euro or in Pounds or in equivalent amount of currency you choose. But there is a reality outside of your understanding which is Indian Republic as a Sovereign nation have its own currency – its called the Indian Rupee. This is the piece of paper on which India runs.
I am sure you have understood absolutely nothing…
This is the same Kirovets known for their heavy equipments. Didnt knew they had a major part in the modernization.
Kirov-Energomash (a subsidiary of the Kirov Group) rebuilt the entirety of the ship’s energy equipment, manufactured all necessary parts, instruments, accessories, and compiled all the necessary operational documentation. Most parts and units were upgraded on the grounds of Kirovsky Zavod in St. Petersburg. Plant specialists disassembled, inspected, and repaired the high- and low-pressure turbines, the reduction gear, the regulation, control, and safety systems, and the turbo-circulatory, turbo- and electric oil pumps. The charging turbine sets were also replaced.
Another company is Arktika which have been associated with all the electrical stuff including the lighting. All lights onbaord are probably LED based lights from Arktika itself.
http://www.spoarktika.ru/light-solza.php
http://www.spoarktika.ru/light-solza_c.php
http://www.spoarktika.ru/light-328.php
I mentioned the lights only, but they are the main electrical contractor and have been associated with Sevmash and Zvezdochka for long and mostly have been working on submarines..
Shiv Aroor’s report during the commissioning. His video report was little better & much less biased than the print article he did which was nearly clueless on many stuffs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2lmc1qanxPI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_QFvoaq9RI
Sukhoi deal has been a bigger contract than Vikramaditya, but whats truly big about this deal was the size of the product, as Commodore Berry rightly points out in his address to the gathering during the festivity before the commissioning of Vikramaditya.
Mr. Mikhail Bundichenko, Director General, Sevmash; Mr Igor Anatolyvich Orlov Governor, Arkhangelsk region; The Mayor of Severodvinsk; The Deputy Mayor of Severodvinsk; Kontr Admiral Vladimir Mikhaylovich Vorobyev, Commander-in-Chief of the White Sea Naval Base; Mr.Vladimir Semarovich Nikitin, Director General, Zvedochkza; Mr. Alexander Ivanovich Telepnev, Director General, Arktika; Captain Shrinivas, WPS, Warship Overseeing Team; Representatives from ROE, USBC, Dear Russian friends & colleagues, fellow shipmates and my crew of Vikramaditya, Indian Naval families, ladies and Gentlemen.
It is indeed an honour and privilege for me to welcome this August gathering today. On behalf of the Indian naval community, warship overseeing team and Vikramaditya crew, I extend our warm greetings and good wishes and thank you for sparing your precious time to participate in the celebrations that is very special for us.
We wish to sincerely acknowledge the effort, the hard work and to convey our heartfelt thanks to all the people of Sevmash, NDB, Arktika, numerous Russian OEMs, trial agencies, Kamov, MiG, the test pilots of MiG and finally our brothers-in-arms – The Russian Navy, who has made this dream project a success.
These concerts are not new for the people of Severodvinsk, we the personnel of Indian Navy have been part of this lovely city for nearly 15 years. However, today is very special occasion. The Vikramaditya crew, warship overseeing team & our dear Russian friends and professional groups perform together just 5 days prior to the mega event of the commissioning of the largest and the most visible symbol of Russia-India friendship – Project 11430 Vikramaditya.
I compliment our dear Russian friends, all those who have been a part of this project, my fellow Indian Navy personnel and convey congratulations to everyone concerned on this happy occasion
16th November 2013 would be a historic day which would further strengthen the strong bonds of friendship between our countries and constitute a very significant moment for Russia India defence ties. Close cooperation and mutual trust have long been the hallmark of the unique, time tested and deep rooted relation between Russia and India.
Our ties have matured over the years acquiring a qualitative new character as a special and privileged strategic partnership. Our bilateral military-technical cooperation has evolved from a simple buyer-seller relationship into one involving joint research and development as well as joint production of advanced systems.
Examples of this transformation are aplenty. Brahmos missile system, probably the best supersonic missile in the world, which is now very successfully the Russia-India joint project, is fitted on all new ships of the Indian Navy. Transfer of the state-of-art stealth frigates, a nuclear submarine, the MiG-29K and KUB, quality modernisation programme of our submarines and of course the refitting of Vikramaditya are other fine examples of this relationship.
The commissioning of the MiG squadron earlier this year in Goa and now this ship is indeed historic event for which millions of Indian have been eagerly waiting.
On behalf of the Indian Navy, I extend our hearty best wishes to the personnel of Sevmash, Zvezdochka, Arktika, MiG, Kamov, all Russian OEMs, ROE and the design bureaus for their dedicated hard work, commitment and zeal in fulfilling all these challenging projects.
Our very sincere gratitude, thanks and congratulations go out to our brothers-in-arms, the Russian Navy which have worked closely and harmoniously with us and conducted a professional training of a very high order and excellent trials of our ships and submarines.
On this joyful day we convey our very deep appreciation to all the citizens of the beautiful city of Severodvinsk for their warm welcome, hospitality and affection that they have generously extended to all the families of the Indian Navy. We wish all of you continued success, good health, prosperity and togetherness with your families, near and dear ones.
I would also like to thank Director General Sevmash and the Mayor of city for supporting this plan for concert, the director and excellent staff of , who very kindly helped us in organizing this concert, The Governor and the Director Generals of Arktika, Zvezdochka and Admiral Vorobyev for sparing your valuable time for this evening.
I am confident that when we depart these lovely shores we shall carry good memories, friendships and combat skills that would enable us to effectively discharge our duties in the honour and glory of our navy and our great nation – India. We will always have in our hearts the comfort and assurance of the warm and strong bonds of Russia-India friendship. We wish continued success and glory to the Russian nation, peace and prosperity and good health to all its people and may the sun always smile at this great land.
Good Luck. Fair Winds, Following Seas and God Bless You All.
Enjoy the evening.
The ship is going to serve for 40 years as earlier mentioned in some reports and even during the function before the ceremony, Mikhail Bundichenko, Director General Sevmash said the Sevmash will be providing support for maintaining the ship for 40 years. The crew & Indian Navy have been eagerly waiting for his entry into service and have truly made him special.
Just in case anyone missed….they have already created a band for Vikramaditya known as the “ViKings” and there are two songs dedicated to INS Vikramaditya. Vikramaditya Rock Song & Vikramaditya Song (likely official) with completely different wordings and music. Both are extremely good. The official Vikramaditya song is going to be there in ever single person’s heart serving onboard for the next 40 years.
What today constitute Indian shipbuilding.
All 45 naval vessels under construction are being made in India
Highlighting the navy’s commitment to indigenous defence production, the navy chief pointed out that all 45 ships and submarines being constructed for the navy are being built in Indian shipyards.
Describing indigenization efforts, Admiral Joshi said that indigenization was 100 per cent in the “float category” of construction (i.e. warship hulls).
In the “move category” (engine, transmission, generators, air conditioning), indigenization was “close to 50 per cent”.
However, in the “fight category” (weapons, sensors, radars, sonars) the navy has “a long way to go.”
Pointing out that this indigenization has been achieved in 60-70 years, starting from virtually a zero industrial base, the navy chief said “we have much to be proud about.”
He said, “We are in dialogue with private industry, DRDO… a lot of money has to be invested in R&D for developing world class systems at competitive prices.”
The P-17 and P-15A cost have given clear signs that untill and unless the suppliers are not changed from the high cost western suppliers to lower cost eastern suppliers, the unit cost of the platforms are going to be a budget drainer. The cost is going to become even higher once the private players come in and their hefty profit margins on every single stuff they touch start to entrench in the final cost.
Pulling out an older quote from this thread related to the tankers
Read in the latest combat aircraft:
Ilyushin plans IL-96 tanker
Well-informed sources from Ilyushin have confirmed that the company is undertaking studies to develop a tanker derivative of its IL-96-400T four-engined freighter. This is being proposed to the Russian Air Force as a strategic tanker to support the operations of the Long-Range aviation air arm.
The IL-96-400 tanker version will be capable of carrying up to 92 tonnes of kerosene on board, which is 1,5 times more than the capacity of both the existing IL-78M “Midas” and the future IL-478. Alexander MladenovI don’t want to reheat an old debate, but is this credible or just wind?
I don’t want to either….. but last years hot debate was all about showing how everything and anything related to IL-76/78 was bad…in that debate it was also mentioned how backward Il-76 family was with no supercritical wings, which even the C-17s had. But the fact is no amount of supercritical wing is going to automatically make a dedicated transport aircraft into the leauge of commercial airliners, not even C-17 with supercritical aerofoil. I had made a comparison chart for that specific stuff last year but somehow it missed getting posted. Saw it now, so posting it with few lines to accompany.
From the general data publicly available for the three aircrafts we can make some comparison and try to see how much a “superior” critical aerofoil for wings can make a difference to an aircraft in its fuel efficiency.
In simple terms lets try to see if we can convert a bull (IL-76, C-17) into a horse (A-330MRTT) with super critical aerofoils.
C-17 and A-330MRTT carry more fuel compared to the IL-76 and both these aircrafts also weighs more than IL-76 whose empty weight I had taken as 95 tons.
From the above comparison we can see that even though both C-17 and A-330 MRTT have over 30% greater internal fuel than the IL-76, the A-330 have a ferry range that is 45% greater compared to IL-76. In contrast, the C-17 just about manage 13.6%.
This in itself shows that if there is any advantage with the supercritical wings, its marginal and was probably not worth the cost involved. This could be the reason why Ilyushin JSC did not go for a wing with supercritical aerofoil for IL-76 family earlier and now with the IL-476.
I would like to end my discussion on this topic here. If anyone wants to have their last words, go ahead.
Promising lightweight fighter will be created in Russia, told Rogozin
http://ria.ru/defense_safety/20131211/983414883.html
Its real good news atleast for me.:cool:
There is scope for light fighters (medium class) in Russian service and in the International market. In the Russian military, even if Russian AF sideline it, the Russian Navy would require it for their carrier(s) in future. Su-33 class is over-sized for most carriers and only something like Nimitz class does justice for its size. So does anything based on PAK-FA for carrier. So what is/was required is a MiG-29K class aircraft and a successor to the MiG-29/35 materializing is indeed good news.
It is still not clear if it is light in the sense of a MiG-21/LCA/Gripen class single-engined fighter or if it is a twin-engined MiG-29 class medium fighter.
Regarding the engine option since RAC-MiG was (and still is to an extend) a vertically integrated company with its ‘own’ engine house Klimov, I am expecting the RD-XX class engine to power the LMFS and don’t see any AL-XX class engines or need for such larger and heavier engines for this light fighter.
RD-33 today stands strong with its latest variant RD-33MKM @ 9.5t thrust
where as Klimov’s plan for future fighter engines was 11t-12t thrust and its likely to progress well in the years ahead and be ready by the time LMFS is ready for flight.
If it is a single engined real light fighter… I bet its a long due replacement for a MiG-21 class fighter, from the very developers of that remarkable aircraft, for International market. But in a new LO avatar.
Every time I hear LMFS, the Vityaz 2000 is what comes to mind, so I modified Paralay’s sketch to suit my taste for a single engined aircraft. Below is a slightly modified version of the original sketch and I would love to do some more modifications…
[ATTACH=CONFIG]223686[/ATTACH]
^ Regarding new degaussing ships, the below one is probably the new units (modified variants) to be seen in few years time.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]223678[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]223676[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]223677[/ATTACH]
http://russian-ships.info/eng/support/project_1799.htm
Project 21820 launch in Vladivostok on 30 Sep 13. larger pictures here http://sdelanounas.ru/blogs/44626/


Japs are helping the Russi to build up proper defense of their Islands. I posted the below pic as it looked symbolic to me (though the picture in reality might not be representing it)… a Russian landing unit heading towards an island/rock occupied by the Japs.


Pr.21820 landing craft & Pr.21980 anti-sabotage patrol boat
http://www.wrk.ru/forums/attachment.php?item=363809
With club container
http://www.balancer.ru/sites/ru/ba/bastion-karpenko/MVMS-2013/MVMS-2013_3_126.JPG
@Jinan
you are welcome, sir
Would be happy if you could find me any pic of the model below from other angle.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]223472[/ATTACH]
@ Twinblade, great video…. btw, how do you embed that video?
From Tango III’s news section. Few quotes from the article.
India To Construct 4 LPDs
Dec. 12, 2013 – 11:37AM
By VIVEK RAGHUVANSHINEW DELHI — The Indian Navy has floated a US $2.6 billion domestic tender for construction of four landing platform docks (LPDs) and bids were sent to domestic shipyards, Larsen & Toubro (L&T), Pipavav Defence and Offshore Engineering, and ABG Shipyard.
A senior Navy planner said the service will select a winning design based on the low bidder. State-owned Hindustan Shipyard Ltd. (HSL) then will build two LPDs based on that design and the winning company will build two.
……
To build the LPDs in India, Larsen & Toubro has tied up with Navantia of Spain, while Pipavav Defence has teamed with France’s DCNS and ABG Shipyard has partnered with Alion of the US.
Limiting involvement to only domestic shipyards, despite having no experience in building LPDs, is welcomed by analysts.
“This is an extremely wise decision; LPDs are relatively less sophisticated than high-end destroyers and provide a perfect opportunity for domestic private industry to upgrade their skills in warship construction. Private shipyards which have made huge investments in developing modern state-of-the-art shipyards will be able to prove their credentials for undertaking larger and more sophisticated projects,” said Anil Jai Singh, retired Indian Navy commodore and defense analyst.
This should give an idea about the real capability that exist in India for ships. But then there are no shortage of tall claims w.r.t to in house designing….
The LPD tender states the ship should be no more than 215 meters long and have a draft not to exceed 8 meters, in full load conditions. The ship will be powered by electric propulsion systems and have an endurance of 45 days with a maximum sustained speed of not less than 20 knots.
If it is a typo and this is for LHD, then Jaun Carlos will be over in dimension. But then Mistral will be short on troop capacity.
The LPD should be able to accommodate 1,430 personnel, including 60 officers, 470 sailors and 900 troops.
If its a LHD, then Jaun Carlos with 900 troop capacity fits in well except for the length limitation. Mistrals in current form can only carry 450 troops. Or is the tender specifically tailored to tavour the Yanks with St Antonio class LPD? But that too fall short on 900 capacity.
Thanks a lot Jo.
Never saw that link of Phazatron.