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JangBoGo

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  • in reply to: INS Vikramaditya: Steaming towards Induction #2012004
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    I myself am no expert in this matter, but I suspect those speculating about the possibility of converting the ship to nuclear propulsion, gas turbines etc. are not understanding the complexity of such a task.

    To completely alter the ship’s internal propulsion would be a complex task in terms of both design and application. What amount of horsepower and other parameters would be required with the new equipment for the same level of ship performance? What would be the layout? How to design the new gearboxes, rudders, shafting etc for the reactors/gas turbines? How to make it all fit in space which was designed and built specifically to accomodate the old system? What about fuel flow and exhaust piping?

    I agree with the complexity part w.r.t to N-power. More than anything else, it would be the shock & vibration on the power plant unit that are going to be the main concerns. Which means, their installation and mounting has be fool proof. That is probably the biggest problem going to be when installing a N-power unit inside a ship which was not initially equipped with one. If the N-unit installed is going to encounter shocks than the permitted levels, we are going to face a Fukushima kind of situation inside…

    As it is the Russian shipbuilding enterprise had a hard time just restoring the ship given it was originally built in Ukraine and they had to find new suppliers for key components including propulsion.

    Most of the suppliers were from Russia itself including the power plants, if I’m not wrong.

    My personal view is that, the biggest mistake of Soviet Russia was to make Ukraine their premier yard for carriers. Their decision was mainly because the yard was deep inside the Soviet territory and safe from Recce aircrafts and other intrusions. Else, they could have built all the Kiev class & Kunznetsov class in either Baltisky Zavod or Admirality Verf, both of which are big yards with about 300m slipways. I can also be wrong, but that what I feel.

    The problem with Sevmash now is that the gate to the baasin is around 38m or so, big enough for N-submarines, but not so for the carriers. INS Vikramaditya was just lucky to slide in and out with her size 36 waist 😀

    Converting it to a flattop was an even more difficult task since they were completely altering the ship’s structure. How many more years and how much more money would be required for redesigning and replacing the entire propulsion system?

    The flight deck part was the easiest part. Its always the inside work of reworking on an already built carrier in some other yard which is the real deal and consumes man hours. For a very small on-site example, try to re-wire & re-plumb your own house which was originally done by someone else, by keeping the original layout. 😉

    There is no need to replace the entire propulsion units now. It won’t be cost-effective and would only be wasting time & money. Either rectify the problem and operate the ships & its systems strictly as per OEM manual after induction. If there is no confidence in its future operation, don’t keep the ship. Sell it back to Russia. Period.

    Indeed. Our MoD, especially since the UPA came to power, are notorious for delaying or botching key strategic decisions. There were so many missed opportunities in this matter alone in the past decade. We could have bought the Varyag in 1997 before it was sold for scrap to China. We could have bought and refurbished the Invincible class vessels when they were retired. We could have lobbied for one of the CVFs when there was talk of axing them.

    1997 or 2012, India does not have the capability to built Varyag class of carrier on her own, leave alone a severely complex work of rebuilding an already built carrier.

    Even the learning curve (which most Indians do not want to admit) is very low and there exist no real capablity to design a ship in the class of carrier. We can see the perfect example of lack of it in the RFI for LPD. Even after getting the design of Cavour and getting it modified for IAC-I, we are not able to independently modify/design a suitable LHD/LPD based on it. Instead, we are in search for a completely new design for LPD from foreign design bureau and did not even make an effort to design one based on what little designing experience we gained from IAC-I projct. Is there anything more shameful?

    And people are talking about converting the Vayrag a decade earlier.

    Heck, we could have started building our own carrier in 1997 instead of negotiating for the Gorshkov and it would be ready by now!:mad:

    Maybe, it would have atleast reached in final stages, if not operational, but only with the help of outside partner/consultant. Even in the home built carrier we did the mistake of initially going with DCN and then changing over to the Italians. Now we can confirm that the Italian choice was bad as the IAC-II is not going to be the continuation of IAC-I, but a completely new project.

    Also, what we need to remember is that be it 1997 or 2004 or 2012, we always had options for building a new carrier with at least two new designs to choose from which was/is not less than what IAC-II is going to be now. Both these were/are obviously from Russia in the form of Pr.1143.5 (>65,000ton) and the larger Pr.1143.7 (>80,000tons). Both were full-fledged new carriers and the Pr.1143.7 was scrapped just 5 years earlier (from 1997) after completing 45% of the hull. The design & documentations were still “fresh”.

    But Indian Navy did not pursue none of the projects becuase, they were thinking on a very modest level as “Cinderella” at that time could not think anything big due to almost complete neglect for Navy’s need.

    Atleast since 2000, we had the option to buy the design & consultation of the Pr.1143.5 or Pr.1143.7 from Russia. But by then, all head was filled with the wonder that Italian Cavour presented in the form of ‘modular’ construction. Even now, we can make up the time and invest the time and money in either of the projects. The recent reports indicate that IAC-II is going to be over 65,000tons but not clear on who has been chosen as the partner for it. There are three candidates – the original 65,000ton carrier Pr.1134.5, French PA2 and the CVF.

    So what with the current IAC-I?
    …my personal opinion is make it a Helo carrier (none of which we have now) and built successive units of the same. Its a wastage to stop the project with just one unit. 😡

    in reply to: INS Vikramaditya: Steaming towards Induction #2012005
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    See:
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1930857&postcount=853

    … plus, depending on the cooperation of Ukraine.

    The article have lots of errors or deliberate misinformation (?) in it… like quoted below..

    The replacement boilers installed as part of the vessel’s $2.3 billion refit were guaranteed for just ten months, which expired before the ship took to sea, he said.

    I’m not sure how true this is considering that it is the Baltisky Zavod who is the specialist here and they are the provider of warranty. It would be better to take their word on the matter.

    The worst case would be damage to the pipes carrying steam from the boilers, Shulyakovsky said. The pipes are made from a special steel which is no longer made in Russia. The steel used in Vikramaditya’s pipes was made in Ukraine.

    Baltisky Zavod has been a specialist for the Boilers and other specialized products and with a highly specialized Marine Nuclear power plant industry in Russia, the statement looks completely out of reality. Is he trying to say that entire marine power industry depend on Ukraine for special steel?

    I checked for any report in Baltisky Zavod, but nothing new in their news section. Also, In the news section of Baltisky Zavod, the pipe “in the line of fire” of the whole boiler business is anyway made with special steel and the former boss is claiming that the special steel used in pipes for the steam circuits outside of the boiler is not available in Russia?

    http://www.bz.ru/en/news*3.html

    http://www.bz.ru/en/news*3,27.html

    The first boiler for the Indian aircraft carrier was manufactured in May 2005. It is assembled on the test bench and is used as a simulator. The crew has an opportunity to get practical training as regards repairs and maintenance. Later the boiler will be sent to India and subsequently installed in the crew training facility. The rest eight boilers will be installed on board the warship, which is modernized by FSUE «North Machinebuilding Plant», Severodvinsk.

    Baltiysky Zavod has modernized boilers type КVG-3 – КVG-ЗD. Now they operate on diesel fuel instead of black oil. Owing to this modernization power plant performance increased. Boiler piping is produced from special corrosion-resistant steel, providing durability of equipment.

    On the customer’s request Baltiysky Zavod used environmentally friendly asbestosfree insulation in the manufacture of marine boilers. A new insulation (mineral fiber) is ecologically harmless material.

    There are another news like below in the news archive section, but most of them only have headlines only and no detailed reports.

    14 February 2006 года
    Baltisky Zavod produced a launcher for anti-ship missile system “Club-N”

    Baltiysky Zavod JSC as a part of a Joint Industrial Corporation produced the first Club-N missile system for the Indian Navy. The system will be fitted onto frigates project 17, which are under construction in India.

    06.07.2005
    Baltiysky Zavod to supply tanks for indian power plant

    31.05.2005
    Baltiysky Zavod JSC completed the first boiler for Admiral Gorshkov

    shipyard’s former director Oleg Shulyakovsky.
    ^^ btw, was he the same person who messed up the work & cost estimates initially? :confused:

    in reply to: INS Vikramaditya: Steaming towards Induction #2012103
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    Let’s wait for more news.

    “Insider” reports come out from Russian media all the time with random criticism of the defense industry.
    Remember recently the Severdovinsk “failed” trials as well?

    Yes.
    But the news might have already become the favorite stick for the usual suspects to charge..

    Since this is the sea trials and problems are expected to be popped out, what we are going to see as a direct result of this development are the specific figures in operational manual. Like the max sustained speed without causing the boilers to overheat and activate the safety systems.

    in reply to: INS Vikramaditya: Steaming towards Induction #2012128
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    From Tango’s news section..

    INS Vikramaditya Trial Malfunctions to Delay Handover

    08:37 17/09/2012
    MOSCOW, September 17 (RIA Novosti)

    Malfunctions detected during trials of Indian Navy aircraft carrier Vikramaditya will delay the vessel’s handover to India, the Kommersant business daily reported on Monday.

    The Vikramaditya, formerly the Russian Navy’s Admiral Gorshkov, is to be handed over to India after ongoing sea trials following a much-delayed refit. According to the latest agreements, it was to have been handed over on December 4, but the deadline has been postponed again until October 2013.

    The problems started when the vessel tried to gain maximum speed.

    Seven out of eight steam boilers of the propulsion machinery were out of order,” an official told Kommersant.

    The official, who prepared the Vikramaditya for sea trials, said the reason for the boilers’ failure was that India refused to use asbestos as a means to protect the boilers from heat, fearing that the material was dangerous for the crew.

    He said the boilers’ designer had to use firebrick, which proved not sufficiently heatproof, the official said.

    hope they clear the problems soon..

    in reply to: INS Vikramaditya: Steaming towards Induction #2012130
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    X-posting mack8 Post

    MiG-29K flying from Vikramaditya (found on paralay, courtesy Djoker)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKm1OEcncek&feature=player_embedded

    screenshots from the video…
    http://i.imgur.com/iNNQF.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/XVqg7.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/7I19n.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/qpNZR.jpg
    http://i.imgur.com/WZDhv.jpg

    From balancers

    Vikramaditya aircraft carrier in the Barents Sea
    Saturday, September 15, 2012

    http://www.odin.tc/pics/vikramaditya1.jpg

    The captain of the vessel for offshore diving operations Markab Igor Kondranin sent the Maritime Bulletin beautiful photos Vikramaditya aircraft carrier (formerly the Admiral Gorshkov) somewhere in the Barents Sea, issued on 14 or 15 September. The aircraft carrier continues to experience something, but if you remember the story, he is being sold in India way back in 2004, was to join the Indian Navy has commissioned in 2008, after a major overhaul, refurbishment and appropriate tests.

    in reply to: RuAF News and Development Thread 9 #2308120
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    MiG-29K flying from Vikramaditya 🙂 (found on paralay, courtesy Djoker)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKm1OEcncek&feature=player_embedded

    Good find. Translation?
    Is there any clips showing the 29K lifting off with that strike (dummy) payload?

    screenshots from another forum, courtesy Kunal…

    http://i.imgur.com/XVqg7.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/7I19n.jpg

    http://i.imgur.com/qpNZR.jpg

    in reply to: RuAF News and Development Thread 9 #2308121
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    Question for the experts,

    The MiG-29K/M is quoted as having a 5500kg payload capacity while the MiG-35 is advertised with 6500kg payload.

    Given the MiG-35 is identical to the MiG-29M except for the avionics and has the same engines, how was this 1-tonne increase in payload achieved?

    Or is it just a case inconsistent information?

    By making use of longer launch run.

    in reply to: PLAAF Thread 15 #2308122
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    Here’s a bigger pic

    Is that a real engine?

    From the discussion, it looks the fighter is going to be powered by RD-93/WS-13 class engines. And knowing that WS-13 is still not a matured product, China will have to depend on Russia for the powerplants for atleast the initial lots.

    I think, a good opportunity have been presented before Klimov to make use of this Chinese requirement and fast track their own development of a higher thrust RD-33 engine, from the current 9.5t RD-33MKM. If Klimov can cut a deal for XXX number of RD-33XXX with no less than 10.5-11.5 ton thrust to power this new aircraft, it would be a win-win situation for both the Chinese & Klimov. Klimov can then use that developed engine for the MiG-29s and any future models coming from RAC-MiG.

    btw, is there a naval variant of this aircraft or are they planning (by any chance) this aircraft to be a carrier based aircraft?
    The Flanker based air wing is going to take a lot more space than smaller aircrafts,even though it gives an advantage in range. Smaller aircrafts like these can be carried in larger number.

    in reply to: China Space & Missiles tread v.1.0 #1791837
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    Hey why bookshelf rack in picture is blurred :confused:
    Look like chines censorship work at it best

    My dear friend, thats hardly a surprise and not even an exceptional case. they probably did not want to expose what the books/files are.

    This kind of censorship is common to all three (Japan,China,Korea) in various fields. In this department Japanese are at the top and in almost all their programmes/documentaries/reports they censor what is not required for the view to see. For example, during plant visits, they blur the machinery that is of importance, data displayed on PC screens etc. Even on Shinkansen bullet trains, they blur all the displays & side panels that they do not want the general public to see (maybe on special occasions..), except for the normal screen displaying the speed and more common stuffs.

    in reply to: PLAN News Thread #4 #2012135
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    Yes…its called the radar horizon.

    I think 052D is meant for high-flying longer ranged targets. So the AESA units not sitting at the top-most level might not matter much. For that better radar horizon for surface search, they have got the Russian units on the mast.
    The ships duty might be similar to what the USN have with their long-range on AB class.

    With the 052D, PLAN would be able to keep (and is probably looking out to engage/keep out) the airborne threat like P-3, P-8 and other aircrafts at a safe distance.

    in reply to: PLAN News Thread #4 #2012138
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    Good shots of HHQ16 from Type-054A

    http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q552/luritie/5c710bdd.jpg

    http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q552/luritie/4ba28c90.jpg

    http://i1163.photobucket.com/albums/q552/luritie/39326e4c.jpg

    The surprising things is PLAN have retained two different launch types for their ships. Hot launch for the 054A and cold launch for new 052D from what it looks like.

    Question for PLAN watchers. Are the individual cells of the 64 VL units on 052D in the class of Klub/Yakhont/S-300 class (i.e in dia) or is it in the class of the smaller HHQ 16 on the 054A?

    in reply to: Harriers destroyed in Afgahnistan #2308132
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    The ‘Marine Forward Base’ you are talking about is Camp Bastion a modest little setup likened in scale to the town of Reading!. Also a base possessed of a 3.5km hard strip runway so its just happenstance that the AV-8B’s were the aircraft hit…it could just as easily been a conventional type. Bagram has been attacked in the same manner several times…I dont recall your equal consternation for USAF F-15E’s though??.

    Of course if the aircraft had been parked on an aircraft carrier several miles off shore the low-tech threat like 20 lads in friendly uniforms and suicide vests is somewhat diminished…so more amphibs with STOVL deck capability is the lesson that comes from this it seems.

    http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/02340/bastion_2340973a.jpg

    I’ve been inside Camp Bastion – and it seemed like the safest place on earth

    It was supposed to be impregnable – the safest military base in the world. A veritable fortress positioned in the middle of the arid, treeless, empty Helmand desert, isolated but not vulnerable.

    By Sean Rayment, Defence Correspondent
    9:30PM BST 15 Sep 2012

    It was often said of Camp Bastion that the only correct decision that Britain ever made during its torrid history in Afghanistan was to build the base in the middle of nowhere, with isolation as its primary strength.

    Anyone approaching from any direction should be easily spotted, tracked, identified – and, if they pose a threat, destroyed. That was the theory.

    But the events of last Friday, when a force of Taliban gunmen managed to move up to and breach the Bastion’s security at around 10.15pm (local time), supposedly without being seen or heard, have sent a shock wave through Nato’s high command.

    JangBoGo
    Participant

    How feasible would it be to use a swarm of fast attack craft in green waters to take out a larger more powerful better funded Navy?.

    the idea at its basic would be to assign each of the boats a speciality and equipment using fused communication and sensors between the various boats to share targets.

    At the core of the of the swarm would be to have specialist instrumented boats with Sonar, Radars etc containing light self defence capabilities.

    Surrounding this and protecting these boats would be the boats carrying the armaments with limited (this does not necessarily equal useless) detection capabilities to allow adequate escape routes in case the “intelligent” boats are made useless through some attack.

    This would be taking the LCS methodoly to a different direction, instead of swapable modules on one ship that does everything, putting the “modules” on specific boats that are small fast and with a small crew.

    This could pose problems for aggressor vessels and require greater concentration on possible targets.

    Could also potentially dull the point of a Anti Ship Ballistic Missile Systems.

    The profiles of the individual boats could be a lot lower allowing them to be stealthier etc…

    I don’t know what displacement you had in mind, but such platforms for the same role was/is operational around the world and in India also. If you can do away with that FAC tag, that is exactly what we are likely going to see in the future to counter a more powerful force in ones own backyard without the use of heavy combatants.

    So, Is it feasible? – YES.

    Pr.21361 could be the one stop shop platform that you might need.

    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=204561&d=1334003103

    The ~950ton vessel is/can be armed with a wide variety of weapons and can be tailored to meet the specific roles that you demanded.

    Patrol/Survelliance
    Pr.21630 variant with helo deck.
    Anti-Ship
    8 x Klub/Yakhont missiles.
    ASW
    8 x Klub (another variant with hull mounted sonar is there)
    Air-Defence
    32 x 9M317ME/9M96E/E2 (instead of 8 x cell)

    ^^^ now you model the number of ships needed to make up a decent force to counter the bully effectively.

    Long-Range Radar (just my modelling)
    1 x Podberezovik ET2 radar (500Km range) and all the power & processing units being installed in the housing that in other model is used for missiles.

    Then for OTH targeting requirements (if need be) there is a variant based on the original Pr.21630 with landing spot for helo. Also, in the last IMDS expo the below version was displayed which is an enlarged version of Pr.21631 in the of ~1500tons.

    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=204558&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1334003103

    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=204560&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1334003103

    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=204559&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1334003103

    JMHO

    in reply to: Russian Navy Thread #2013072
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    6-7 years time saving is worth the double price in fixed price contract. in 7 years material, energy and labor rates atleast double. and there is opportunity cost of getting such valuable troop and helicopter carrier earlier.
    Imagine what will happen to Oil price once Russia pakred this Mistrals at Red Sea for Anti-terror operations. very good hint. (All this extra permium can be collected in single day)

    I agree and that is the major and only comforting thing in the whole deal as far as I’m concerned. I hope the timeline of 2014 is kept, any delay in the delivery and it would loose even tha advantage, the only positive factor to he deal.

    also,

    http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=531

    » Payload capacity: 2,650 square meters of hangar for vehicles, cargo and
    » 450 soldiers with levels of comfort and roominess allowing for long journeys. This ability to transport soldiers may be increased to a maximum of 700 with more basic comfort.
    » Up to 70 vehicles or 13 MBTs or a mix of both.
    » Well-deck has capacity for 4 LCU type landing craft or 2 Landing Craft Air Cushion (LCAC) or 2 Landing Catamarans (L-CAT/EDA-R).

    In terms of cargo capacity, Pr.1174 is almost the same or more than the mistrals w.r.t tanks/vehicles it can carry. Mistrals major & probably only improvement on cargo capacity over the Pr.1174 is in the aviation. But to built such a capacity by improving upon the existing designs was within the design bureaus capablity.

    An enlarged version of Pr.1174 of ~30+m beam & 50m additional length with a a full deck overhead for hanger/crew space would have made the ship almost identical (in terms of even looks) to what Mistral looks like now!

    in reply to: Russian Navy Thread #2013099
    JangBoGo
    Participant

    From topwar.ru, an article on the Pr.955 Borei. Translated print version below.

    http://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2012-08/thumbs/1345023965_02.jpg

    The Making of “Borey”

    Difficult “genera”

    “Later, the number of my deputies joins a very intelligent and well-learned Vladimir A. Zdornov, who became chief designer and project leader of our group. In his role as chief designer submarines of the fourth and fifth generations Zdornov made a decisive and invaluable contribution to the ships of project 955 (“Northwind”) “- recalled Sergei Nikitich.

    However, the revision of priorities in the changed geopolitical conditions, lack of government funding and the correction of military requirements for new systems has led to the closure of work on complexes of D-31 and D-35. In 1995, a decree of Russian President approved a proposal to equip the Navy’s Project 955 set of D-19UTTH “Bark” missile with a P-39UTTH development of the State Rocket Center (SRC), named after VP Makeev. This complex was created in the development of the complex D-19 to retrofit submarines of Project 941. The decision to locate the “Boree” heavy and bulky D-19UTTH (12 missiles) required to make significant changes to the original look of the ship.

    Bookmark head boats (serial number 201) was held on November 2, 1996 in Severodvinsk, in the Northern machine-building enterprise. However, economic difficulties and a systemic crisis in the “defense” of the country is seriously hindered the pace of construction. At that time, General Director David NSR Pashayeva strong pressure to conduct a large-scale layoffs of Sevmash, as well as to give, for example, to continue the construction of ships of project 949A, dropping them into scrap metal.

    http://topwar.ru/uploads/posts/2012-08/thumbs/1345023435_01.jpg

Viewing 15 posts - 721 through 735 (of 1,463 total)