Good grief! That assumes stupidity, complacency & technical incompetence on the part of the Indian Navy, & stupidity, ignorance & misplaced contempt for the IN on the part of the Americans.
You have a very low opinion of the IN.
Just think about it for a moment. You can easily track whether the aircraft is transmitting anything. You can easily cross-check sensor data against other sensors to see if it’s real-time or delayed.
your are entitled to your views and I’m to mine… Austin have already said few points on the matter. As long as the critical stuffs are from the Americans, the chance of access to the data stored and exchanged is possible. If none of the critical equipments and systems were of American origin and was Indian, then there was no need for the P-8I in the first place. India would have been better off in integrating its own mission suite and its equipments by selecting an appropriate platform like B373 or A320 or Tu-204 family. That is what India is at least doing in the case of AEW with Embraer.
w.r.t to prioritizing the need and funding for naval assets, I certainly do have a low opinion about the IN.
Russia to Test New Naval Air Defense System by Year End
10:31 12/05/2012
MOSCOW, May 12 (RIA Novosti)Russian air defense systems manufacturer Almaz Antei hopes to complete testing of its new Poliment-Redut ship-based air defense missile system by the end of this year, the company’s General Director Vladislav Menshikov said on Saturday.
Previous Russian media reports have claimed the development of the system has been delayed.
Poliment-Redut is derived from the land-based Vityaz air defense system which uses the 9M96 medium-range air defense missile.
“Work on the system is at a preliminary test stage. But to complete testing we need a ship at sea,” Menshikov said. “This year, by all estimates, testing should be complete. The missiles are ready, we are waiting to go to sea,” Menshikov said in an interview with Vedomosti newspaper published on Saturday.
Full article – http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20120512/173404790.html
This appears to be the final tests before entry, so we can expect it to be in service next year.
Too bad India did not go ahead for JV and instead went for Barak-8. If Indian money was made available to this project, the system probably would have been in service on the Talwar class and Shivalik class by now.
^^^ that is completely refreshing and beautiful. The dull grey is boring, they should have retained the original scheme atleast for the various prototypes.
Plane Crash Doesn’t Spell Disaster for Superjet Project
The crash site of the Sukhoi Superjet-100 (SSJ-100) that disappeared in Indonesia on May 9 has been found. It had crashed into a mountain. However, the tragic end of the demo flight does not spell the end of this Russian civil aviation project.
The RRJ (Russian Regional Jet) project to develop the Sukhoi Superjet 100 airliner (available in two models: regular and extended range, both with 75 or 95 passenger seats), was launched in the early 2000s.
Full article – http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20120511/173397195.html
Superjet Fit to Fly Before Crash
“The flight of the Sukhoi Superjet 100 aircraft was carried out in full compliance with international and Indonesian rules. The airliner had all the necessary documents and performed its flight in compliance with the authorized itinerary,”
Pogosyan, a former head of Sukhoi which designed the plane and is part of UAC, said it was still premature to say if pilot error caused the crash.
“Alexander Yablontsev (who was flying the SSJ-100 jet) is our best test pilot. He took part in the full circle from the jet’s design to its certification,” Pogosyan said, adding the cause of the tragedy would only be established after decoding the information from the airliner’s flight data recorders.
full report – http://en.rian.ru/russia/20120511/173392847.html
that is a big loss for Sukhoi…. so does a big loss for those who lost their loved ones. 🙁
Engines, Flight Recorders Found at Russia Jet Wreck in Indonesia
17:48 13/05/2012
JAKARTA, May 13 (RIA Novosti)Flight recorders of the Russian Sukhoi Superjet-100 (SSJ-100) that crashed near Jakarta on Wednesday killing 45, were reportedly found on Sunday in a deep gorge but will be raised on Monday, a local rescue chief said.
Earlier on Sunday, Indonesian special police force also found the engines and the running gear of the SSJ-100, Indonesia’s web portal Detik.com reported on Sunday.
“The flight data recorders have been found today but we cannot raise them to the surface yet,” Tatang Kurniadi, head of the National Transport Safety Committee, told Detik.com.
The jet disappeared from radar screens during a demonstration flight about 20 minutes after the takeoff and presumably slammed into a steep mountainside at Mount Salak outside Jakarta. All the people onboard, including eight Russians, one American, one French, two Italians and 33 Indonesians died.
Indonesian special police force found the flight data recorders on the fifth day of the rescue and search effort at a depth of 500 meters, the local rescue coordinator Soma Suparsa told VIVAnews.
The Russian Embassy in Indonesia cofirmed that the flight recorders had been found but not raised.
“We confirm that, according to the chief of the Indonesian rescue team, the site where the flight recorders could be lying has been discovered,” said Dmitry Solodov, the press attache of the embassy.
Special Troops Major S. Tambunan told Detik.com that the running gear and the engines were intact while the fuselage would require a special recovery effort.
“The running gear, the left-side and the right-side engines are undamaged, the fuselage is possibly trapped under 10 cubic meters of land slides,” he said.
The rescuers also found several bodies near the jet wreckage, presumably crewmembers. All of them were evacuated, Tambunan said.
The Indonesian rescue operation headquarters told RIA Novosti the rescuers had found the burnt documents of a Russian crewmember from the crash site and delivered them to Jakarta.
The plane crashed in a remote area on rugged terrain. The aircraft had experienced no technical problems ahead of the flight.
http://en.rian.ru/world/20120513/173420307.html
Four Containers with Superjet Victims Brought to Jakarta
06:32 12/05/2012The Russian-built aircraft had already carried out one flight earlier on Wednesday, when it slammed into a steep mountainside in Indonesia during its second flight. All 45 people on board – mostly representatives of Indonesian airlines – were killed.
Leading aviation figures investigating the crash said on Friday the Sukhoi Superjet airliner had experienced no technical problems and its flight was in full compliance with international rules.
On Thursday, Russia’s acting Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said experts believe “human factor” was the most probable cause of the fatal crash of the aircraft.
The Russian Emergencies Ministry has sent two Ilyushin Il-76TD aircraft to Indonesia to assist the rescue efforts.
full version – http://en.rian.ru/russia/20120512/173402694.html
Sukhoi Superjet disaster: Recovery crews spot black box at foot of ravine
Published: 13 May, 2012, 12:48
Edited: 13 May, 2012, 19:51Salvage teams have reportedly discovered the flight recorders from the Russian Sukhoi Superjet that crashed in Indonesia, killing 45 onboard. The devices are hard to reach as they lie at the bottom of a ravine 500 metres deep.
United Aircraft Corporation has not officially confirmed the reports, saying no information regarding the black box has reached them, according to Itar-Tass news agency.
Professional climbers taking part in the operation will try to lift the recorders on Monday. Once they are recovered, the devices will be sent to Jakarta for decoding.
It may take some time for investigators to retrieve the data from the flight recorders, which Indonesian authorities confirm will be carried out in Indonesia.
Transportation Minister E.E Mangindaan has said officials there will spearhead the investigation backed up by 78 Russian specialists.
The Russian-built Sukoi-100 Superjet disappeared from radars shortly after take-off on Wednesday during a demonstration flight. On Thursday, the plane’s wreckage was discovered on the side of the dormant Mount Salek volcano.
Of the 45 who were on board, salvage teams have so far recovered 16 bodies from the site, but they don’t expect to find any survivors.
The identification of the bodies is underway, but the process could take up to six months given the scale of the tragedy.
“The death toll is very big and there are only body parts left behind and, as such, it is very difficult to find and identify the remains of every casualty,” said the head of Jakarta’s Agus Prayitno hospital.
The salvage mission has been hampered by poor weather – something which is also being considered as a factor in the crash.
Possible human error is also being suggested as a cause. Experienced pilot Ronny Rosnadi told Indonesian news website Kompas.com that the pilot of the Sukhoi Superjet had violated altitude regulations.
Rosnadi says the pilot dropped to 6,000 feet during the flight, a violation of the minimum obstacle clearance altitude (MOCA) in mountainous areas which is around 11,000 feet.
The plane had been flying at 10,000 feet, but the pilot reportedly made a request to ground control to drop to 6,000 feet.
The Sukoi Superjet is the first aircraft to be built in Russia for commercial use since the fall of the Soviet Union and was on a tour of five Asian countries, carrying out demonstrations to potential buyers.
Over 170 orders have been placed for the jet around the world so far, although there are worries that the crash may have scuppered potential deals with Indonesian airlines.
Aviation expert Chris Yates told RT that the impact on Sukhoi’s commercial success will be temporary “depending on the accident reports”.
He doubted the possibility of a technical failure, underlining the fact that the Sukhoi superjet “only started flying last year in commercial service, a very modern aircraft, with all the navigation, all the safety equipment on board, that you would normally expect in a jet that is so new, so modern.”
Was Industrial Sabotage at Play with Super Jet crash in Indonesia?
Based on past aggressive competitive commercial tactics employed by the alliance of American corporations, the U.S. Intelligence Community, and the Pentagon, aviation experts in Asia are wondering aloud whether the recent crash of the new Sukhoi Super Jet 100 in Indonesia was the result of high-stakes industrial sabotage engineered to protect Boeing’s lucrative commercial and military aviation market in Asia at the expense of a resurgent Russian aviation industry…
After 21 minutes into the demonstration flight, the pilot requested air traffic control permission to drop from 10,000 to 6,000 feet. Although there was light rain, weather conditions were not hazardous. The reason for the pilot’s request to descend is not known. Shortly after the plane descended, air traffic control lost contact with the plane. Ground observers reported that the plane appeared “unsteady” before the crash.
The plane did not take off from Sukarno-Hatta International Airport but from another local airfield, the Halim Perdanakusuma Airport, which is shared with the Indonesian Air Force’s Halim Air Force Base.
Halim is where U.S. Special Forces troops have been training their Indonesian counterparts in various air force tactics, possibly including meaconing, intrusion, jamming, and interference (MIJI) electronic warfare tactics designed to interfere with aircraft navigation systems. Some of the training occurs every year as part of the EXERCISE COPE WEST, sponsored the Commander of the U.S. Pacific Command in Hawaii. Last year’s exercise, COPE WEST 10, concentrated on simulated military operations against the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Air Force, which uses fighter jets designed and licensed by Sukhoi, including the Sukhoi 27 and Sukhoi 30.
Plane strange: Superjet crash needs criminal investigation
Published: 12 May, 2012, 17:59*The crash of a Russian-built commercial jet on May 9th in Indonesia came at a particularly bad time. The Sukhoi Superjet 100 had just kicked off a promotional Asian tour to attract orders and get Russia’s aviation industry off the ground again.
The enthusiasm was cut tragically short, when the plane disappeared from radar screens at 2:33 pm on Wednesday. The following day, rescue teams found debris from the aircraft littering the steep slopes of Mount Salak in West Java. This leaves the investigation team with the unenviable task of piecing together exactly what went wrong on the doomed flight.
First, the Superjet 100 is unquestionably state-of-the-art technology. The aircraft, which took its maiden flight back in April 2011, combines the technical expertise of five US and European aviation companies. Russia has spent about $1.5 billion researching and developing the twin-engine aircraft with its Italian partner, Alenia Aeronautica SpA. According to the manufacturer, the aircraft has a range of 4,600 kilometers (2,800 miles) and costs just $35 million, well below the market price for this type of aircraft.
The Jakarta Post interviewed Chappy Hakim, the former head of the Indonesia National Team for the Evaluation of Transportation Safety and Security, on the avionics featured in the Superjet. “The cockpit, which is almost identical to the Airbus’s design, is fitted with the latest Fly by Wire technology, a state-of-the-art avionic system and even a ‘joy stick’ to control the plane’s maneuvers,” Hakim said. “The aircraft comes with a Traffic Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) that alarms pilots about impending obstacles in the air. The Ground Proximity Warning System (GPWS), installed since the first design, warns pilots whenever the plane flies dangerously low.”
Given such advanced instruments, Hakim found it perplexing that the aircraft crashed the way it did (head-on into the mountain, as opposed to “swiping” it blindsided at an angle). Furthermore, the Superjet was “closely monitored” as part of its “continuous effort to improve the product.” In other words, this state-of-the-art aircraft had a round-the-clock team of mechanics to keep the machine ship-shape.
According to the aviation expert, “this plane was in top shape and was flown by a highly competent crew, including Sukhoi’s own test pilots.”
Aside from the low probability of mechanical problems, investigators have some other disturbing questions to consider: why would highly experienced pilots request to descend to an altitude of 6,000 feet from 10,000 feet in a mountainous region if weather was a factor (there was reportedly some cloud cover, with a light rain)? The normal procedure in such situations is to ascend above the cloud coverage. Since this was their second demonstration flight, the pilots certainly knew that Mount Salak is a 7,000-foot dormant volcano, one of many in the area. The discovery of the “black box” – that is, assuming it is found – should tell investigators if the crash was due to human error or some sort of catastrophic malfunction. Or it might lead investigators into less pleasant terrain.
Given the extremely sophisticated instrumentation onboard the aircraft, and the professionalism and experience of the crew, it is too early to rule out industrial espionage as a possible cause of the crash. In my opinion, the accident deserves a full criminal investigation of every single person – airline worker or not – who came into contact on May 9th with the aircraft before it crashed. Although it may sound over-the-top, unless researchers find conclusive evidence of human error or technical malfunction, I would even request polygraph tests. But that’s me.
Sukhoi has plans to sell about 1,000 Superjets over the next ten years. To date, the ambitious campaign has already attracted about 200 orders from international clients. These numbers represent a respectable chunk of the highly profitable commercial aircraft market. Given the extremely competitive conditions of the global economy, which is still struggling to pull through a grinding recession, aviation companies have no desire to surrender their market share to newcomers. While a competitive market does not automatically point to foul play, it does not automatically rule it out either.
Meanwhile, Investigative Committee spokesman Vladimir Markin told reporters that a group of Russian investigators has flown to Jakarta to take part in the inquiry into the crash, and another group will travel there on Saturday. “As part of the criminal inquiry, a part of the group of Russian investigators has already flown out to Jakarta where they are going to attend the investigative procedures carried out by the Indonesian law enforcement authorities,” Markin said.
The second group of investigators will fly to Indonesia on May 12, he said, adding that the investigation will focus on Russia as well. “It should be noted that the investigative procedures will take place not only at the air crash scene but also in the Russian Federation,” Markin said. “In particular, investigators will question the technical staff who prepared the aircraft for the flight, as well as representatives from the Sukhoi Civil Aircraft company, who were involved in making and preparing the aircraft for operation.”
Meanwhile, according to Indonesian Coordinating Minister for Economic Affairs Hatta Rajasa, the Sukhoi crash will not affect economic ties between Russia and Indonesia.
“Economic cooperation between the two countries continues to develop without problems, as usual,” said Rajas, who was quoted by Indonesian media on Saturday.
The crash of the Superjet on May 9th was not the only mysterious incident to hit Russia’s aviation industry in a rather short period. On September 7, 2011, a Yakolev-42 aircraft crashed on takeoff near the city of Yaroslavl. The aircraft failed to gain altitude, struck a tower mast, and crashed. Forty-five people died. The accident occurred on the same day that Yaroslavl was hosting its third international summit, attended by 400 participants from 36 countries. The official cause of the plane coming down has been declared as “pilot error,” although experts are still in disagreement as to exactly what caused the crash.
*Robert Bridge, RT
http://rt.com/politics/columns/bridge-too/sukhoi-superjet-crash-indonesia/
Trident’s post from previous thread
More info from Divgateli-2012 on the PD-30 aka NK-65, including a much better image:
http://missiles2go.wordpress.com/201…#1075;о/
http://www.aviaport.ru/news/2012/05/05/234014.html
In general I agree that the D-18T Series 5 is probably the better option, being less risky, that said, the NK-65/PD-30 is a viable concept. BTW, that ainonline.com article is probably mixing up the NK-93 and D-27 when talking about the gearbox – the latter does not develop anything like 33000 hp, but that figure is about right for the former.
Austin’s post from previous thread
New Russian Geared Turbofan Could Re-engine the Ruslan
AIN Defense Perspective » May 4, 2012The Kuznetsov design bureau, part of the United Engine Corporation (ODK), unveiled a new geared turbofan design at the Engines 2000 exhibition in Moscow last month. The PD30 is proposed for an upgrade to the Antonov An-124 Ruslan heavy airlifter, which is currently powered by the Ukrainian Ivchenko Progress D18T. The PD30 could also power Russia’s proposed widebody airliner, known as Airplane 2020.
The PD30 is portrayed as a low-risk project through extensive use of off-the-shelf components and technologies proven on other projects. However, it features many innovations: a high-power (50,000 hp, 99 percent efficiency) reduction gearbox between fan and turbine, wide-chord hollow (honeycomb) fan blades, very-low-emission combustor, mono-crystal blades, blisks in the HP compressor and booster, chevron nozzle, all-composite nacelle, intake and thrust reverser, and Fadec.
When fitted to the An-124-300, the PD30 would develop 29.5 metric tons (65,000 pounds) of thrust for takeoff and 5.7 to 6.2 metric tons (12,560- to 13,670 pounds) when cruising at 11,000 meters (36,000 feet). Low specific fuel consumption (SFC) of 0.535-0.548 lb/lb/hr is achieved through a high bypass ratio (between 7.65 and 8.7), while gas temperatures are kept at 1,433K at maximum continuous power.
By comparison, the D18T series 5 delivers 27.85 metric tons (61,400 pounds) thrust at takeoff and 6.28 metric tons (13,840 pounds) in cruise, with an SFC of 0.541 lb/lb/hr. At 5,140 kg (11,330 pounds), the PD30 weighs 560 kg (1,235 pounds) less than the D18T. Kuznetsov says that the PD30 has a similar performance to the Rolls-Royce Trent series, while running at lower temperatures for higher margins and lower emission levels.
The centerpiece of the PD30 project is the use of a “modified baseline gas generator” from the improved NK32 turbofan that powers the Tupolev Tu-160 strategic bomber. Production of the NK32 was restarted recently, with some 40 engines already manufactured. The fleet leader has logged more than 3,500 flight hours. The modified gas generator is undergoing bench testing, and has so far amassed 1,000 hours. Kuznetsov says its industrial turbine NK36ST that is derived from NK32 has logged 25,000 hours without removal, while running continuously at 1,520K.
Kuznetsov promises low noise through the use of a new low-speed fan with rotational speeds below 340-350 m/sec (1,115-1,148 ft/sec) to comply with upcoming ICAO standards. Levels of NOx, CO and hydrocarbon are two, 10 and 15 times less than ICAO 2004 requirements, respectively, through use of a multi-fuel-injector combustor with a life of 30,000 flight hours before removal. This unit has been tested on industrial engines during an 8,000-hour run.
The reduction gearbox is the most complex part of the project. It uses sliding bearings tried on Kuznetsov’s experimental NK93 propfan. Key technologies come from the 33,000-hp unit developed for the An-70’s D27 powerplant. The hollow blades are considered lower risk since Kuznetsov has already tested elements of their design on the NK56 and NK44 in the late 1980s. The blades will be manufactured at ODK’s new factory in Ufa, which specializes in diffusion soldering.
Kuznetsov has issued manufacturing documentation for the PD30 and expects the engine to be mature enough for series production in four to five years. Should the engine be selected for the Airplane 2020 program, its fuel burn could be lowered through higher bypass ratio and higher gas temperatures.
With so little information regarding the crash, some random guy in Moscow “simulated trials at a flight research center that suggests pilot error was a likely factor in the accident” Izvestia daily reported on Friday. Not even a 3 days after the crash… Impressive work there! I’m pretty sure they will blame the pilots no matter what.
And on what basis and analysis did you arrive at your conclusion that “they will blame the pilots no matter what”? :rolleyes:
what is your preliminary assessment of that crash?
^^^
It doesn’t need to end up friendly. Its still an American system and the chances are high that they will get all the details of the friendly match from the data base. Only the Yanks will know if the system is giving them back real-time or delayed feedback of what all the P-8I is coming in contact with.
American press is going to go mental again . OMG they have TWO of these bombers now! They’ll take over the Pacific, omg omg!!! Quick , increase our puny military spending !:rolleyes:
😀
Holly crap.:eek:Courtesy of Xyz from SDF
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1712/2772972964818773c9584b.jpg
http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3650/27729720fd9bc5e27151a1.jpg
Good one
Is there any 2-seat version planned?
So, because he is Indonesian, he can’t comment about the look of an Indian aircraft?
Interesting.
there was nothing much offending in what he said w.r.t Tejas. What matter more than the outer appearance is the systems that go inside and Tejas stuffs in a lot in that matter. The downside is it wont ever replace MiG-21 one-to-one and will not even reach that force level that MiG-21s once had in IAF.
India is a third world country. We cannot afford to have an air force made up of only MKI’s and Rafales. We need a lot of cheap aircrafts to do specific air defense roles. The LCA fits more than enough in that role.
The facilities made for the Tejas development are been used for the AMCA
What we needed was a simple, effective fighter that could be produced in good numbers. But what we have now is a highly complicated fighter with all the latest stuff which fail to leave its “advanced development” stage and continues to “develop” for the foreseeable future.
And I truly admire the guts of those involved who is already dreaming about the AMCA without even completing the LCA project.
Trebovanije-M is the combat management system on the Talwar class and the website mentions pr.11356. It is termed as Combat information control system (CICS).
Trebovanije-M Combat Information Control System
Trebovanije-M Combat information control system (CICS) is intended for ship (project 11356) weapons and radio-electronic armament combat control processes automation at the time of prosecution of combat activities both independently and consisting of a group of ships as an escort ship.
CICS provides the automation of the ship command posts at the time of ship weapon and radio-electronic armament usage control tasks solution:
The Shivalik class is mentioned in the article from USC and probably the CMS-17 of the Project-17 is what the article is talking about. If we read and connect the two highlighted part it looks highly probable.
P17 Shivalik class (Indian CMS)
The Combat Management System (CMS-17) is a locally developed system (by WESEE) with stand alone Russian consoles that connect to the CMS though interface units. The architecture of CMS-17 is a major improvement over legacy Indian developed systems
From United Shipbuilding Corp
Our successful cooperation is well exemplified by the joint development of the radically new combat command information system for project 17 capable of controlling weapons operated by not only a single ship, but by a whole naval force.
Combat information control system (CICS) and Combat Command Information System (CCIS) is probably the same thing and it is the Combat Management System. i.e Trebovanije-M (& derivatives) are installed on the 6 Talwar class and & probably its JV derivatives (CMS-17) are installed on the 3 Shivalik class frigates.
But the topic was not about the specific CCIS or CICS or CMS. It was about which all ships are to form the battle group of INS Vikramaditya. I’m still inclined to believe it is going to be the ships from these 9 frigates. Low AD missile inventory and lack of long legs will be an issue and might need more supply and support vessels, but the above 9 ships represents the finest ships that IN will have by the time carrier battle group is formed.