BeermatAnneorac is a mystery to many of us – rather like the Stig of the propeller world. Some say she can calculate a gear ratio from engine note and blinking with each prop revolution. All we know is… the reference book doesn’t exist, it’s waiting for Anne to write it.
BeermatVery interesting and informative – especially about the paperwork issues about making it a self-supporting tourist carrier (all it would take would be Shorts saying Kermit’s an approved Sunderland-to-Sandringham-converter).
I was waiting for the announcement of a return to flight, presuming this was the good news – but I must have missed the hint? Was it the talk of a seaplane base?
BeermatI believe the MkVXI used Rotols much like the Mk IX? I don’t imagine props were shipped with engines?
The others are interesting , and may also help confirm some equivalencies.
BeermatI too am very interested in where this information is from. I have spent years building up a database of DH propeller numbers and profiles. Manuals never give blade profiles, but there are some Air Ministry partial lists of applications to type. Not seen one early enough to include bracket types before.
What I can state with certainty is that it’s a 12′ 6″ left-hander.
The first five just says it’s a bracket-type duralumin blade.
The second describes the shank size – this describes the diameter of the blade as it becomes circular in section at the root and enters the hub. This is a 5,000 series blade. This suggests a power range of between 900 and 1200 horsepower for a three-blader, but there were exceptions.
The third is the blade drawing number within the series – later this only indicated twist but in this series there were several basic patterns. The 200 type was the most widely used in the 5,000 series brackets. The Spitfire used the 400.
The fourth is hand of rotation – 0 for right, 5, for left. this is from a left-hander – ie probably a British radial, and definitely not Lancaster (right hand).
The fifth is how far the propeller is reduced in diameter from the ‘master’ drawing. In this case that’s 6 inches – 3 inches per blade. The master drawing – and the blade ‘blank’ from the forge, would give a 13ft diameter propeller.
I have a spreadsheet that goes from the first brackets n the Mew Gull to the Hornet. the diameters are right, I have the Hamilton Standard designs that most were copied from, and now I have a lot of the profiles too.
But as I say, very interested in the source of the Wellington information. Do you have a list of bracket prop applications? I can give the profiles for them all. the info the OP has is partially correct – the 55256 had the same basic profile as the Lancaster, but 3 inches shorter and reversed. The Lancaster needle blade itself – a 455600 (the 4 prefix meant Hydromatic) was a copied Hamilton Standard 6353(hydro)/6105(bracket).
BeermatIt does look like this was an incident that never made it to the ‘official’ account.. great work. Mr Aston seems to have been doing a bit of ‘freelance’ work, though credit to him for finding and recording these items.
I’ll try to find my copies of the accident cards that I think include that Oxford. Will take a look in the attic tomorrow.
BeermatI think maybe Paul Aston was in the (Rival) Cotswold Aircraft Restoration Group? Has anyone seen ‘Detectorists’?
Anyway, they did produce this very handy list of Gloucestershire incidents- http://www.aviation-links.co.uk/Glou…0Accidents.pdf
1940 extract as follows (My Blenheim was July 1940 – still, not bad for 35 years!). The Hurricane I recalled correctly – L1977:
1940 ? Hurricane I, Gloster, Crashed into hill, Robinswood Hill
10.01.40 K8332 Audax I, 3 FTS, Crashed on forced landing, 7m W of Tewkesbury
12.01.40 K5043 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, South Cerney
26.01.40 P5862 Harvard I, 12 Grp Pool, Spun in, Aston Down
03.03.40 P1817 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed, N of Cirencester
04.03.40 K8334 Audax I, 3 FTS, Crashed on landing, South Cerney
08.03.40 K5785 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, South Cerney
08.03.40 L4470 Beaufort I, 20 MU, Force landed after engine cut, near Aston Down
08.03.40 L9700 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Stalled on overshoot, South Cerney
08.03.40 N5294 Anson I, 9 FTS, Lost power & crashed, 2.5m S of Nailsworth
08.03.40 P1823 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed on approach, South Cerney
12.03.40 N9824 Anson I, 61 Sqn, Hit tree while low flying, Lechlade
29.03.40 N5588 Gladiator II, 263 Sqn, Collision with Gladiator N5960, Alveston
29.03.40 N5960 Gladiator II, 263 Sqn, Collision with Gladiator N5588, Alveston
10.04.40 K5156 Audax I, 3 FTS, Overturned while taxying downwind, South Cerney
11.04.40 K5797 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, South Cerney
15.04.40 K6837 Hind, 1 PFU, Crashed on landing, Aston Down
17.04.40 K7308 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on landing, Babdown Farm
18.04.40 L4468 ? Beaufort I, Bristol, Crashed, Cribbs Causeway, Filton
21.04.40 K6494 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Overturned on landing, South Cerney
22.04.40 K6633 Hind, 1 FTS, Hit tree on forced landing, 2m N of Pucklechurch
26.04.40 L4494 Beaufort I, 5 MU, Bellylanded after engine cut, Little Rissington
27.04.40 K5046 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Overshot and hit fence, South Cerney
14.05.40 K6549 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Overturned on landing, Leighterton
16.05.40 P9514 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, , Aston Down
24.05.40 K4892 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Collided with Oxford P1816 on ground, South Cerney
25.05.40 K7439 Audax I, 3 FTS, Crashed on landing, South Cerney
01.06.40 L6643 Blenheim I, 236 Sqn, Bellylanded after engine cut, Filton
03.06.40 K9814 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, Crashed on landing, Aston Down
07.06.40 K6510 Hart Trainer, 3 FTS, Damaged on landing, South Cerney
08.06.40 L4537 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Stalled on approach, South Cerney
08.06.40 P5870 Harvard I, 5 OTU, Crashed, Aston Down
19.06.40 L1471 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Hit sandbank on Severn off Lydney harbour while low flying, Woolaston
01.07.40 R6640 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, , Kemble
03.07.40 K7112 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Crashed on take-off, Aston Down
15.07.40 L6597 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Hit mudbank & crashed while low flying, near Sharpness
19.07.40 ? Blenheim, , Crashed in Severn, Lydney Sand
19.07.40 L6023 Hereford I, 5 MU, Hit tree on take-off, Kemble
20.07.40 R6320 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed on landing, Bibury
22.07.40 K3712 Audax I, 9 FTS, Overturned in forced landing, Long Newnton
22.07.40 L6652 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Bellylanded after engine cut, Tetbury
23.07.40 L1105 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Stalled on approach, Frampton Mansell
25.07.40 ? Master, 5 FTS, Collision with Ju 88 on approach, South Cerney
25.07.40 9K+GN Ju 88A, 5/KG 51, Shot down by Hurricane / coll with Master, Lower Weir Farm, Oakridge Lynch
25.07.40 P3271 Hurricane I, 4 FPP, Spun in after collision with Ju 88, near Aston Down
30.07.40 P5901 Harvard I, 6 FTS, Struck trees whilst low flying, near Turkdean
01.08.40 L1308 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Stalled on approach, Aston Down
01.08.40 N6323 Oxford I, 15 FTS, Undershot on approach, Windrush
01.08.40 P1266 Hampden I, 16 OTU, Undercarriage collapsed on landing, Babdown Farm
03.08.40 P1821 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Collision with Oxford P1955, near South Cerney
05.08.40 P5793 Harvard I, 15 SFTS, Undershot on landing, Bibury
06.08.40 P1869 Oxford I, 15 SFTS, Dived into the ground after take-off, near Windrush
06.08.40 R6332 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed after take-off, Bibury
07.08.40 K6541 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Crashed on approach, Babdown Farm
10.08.40 L1063 Spitfire I, 5 OTU, Collision with Blenheim L6799, Aston Down
10.08.40 L6799 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Collision with Spitfire L1063, Aston Down
12.08.40 N4803 Oxford II, 3 FTS, Broke up in flight, Hankerton
13.08.40 R6880 Spitfire I, 4 FPP, Hit balloon cable & crashed, Brockworth
17.08.40 L7907 Anson I, 6 FTS, Hit trees while low flying, Lodge Park, Eastington
18.08.40 1408 / 1G+?T He 111P, 5/KG 27, Collision with Anson L9164, Blackpits Farm, near Aldsworth
18.08.40 L9164 Anson I, 6 FTS, Collision with He 111 WNr 1408, Blackpits Farm, near Aldsworth
19.08.40 ? Spitfire, 92 Sqn, Destroyed on ground by Ju 88, Bibury
19.08.40 P5788 Harvard I, 6 SFTS, Crashed, Northleach Lane field, Hazleton
19.08.40 T7032 Tiger Moth II, 2 EFTS, Hit telephone wires & crashed, Tewkesbury
25.08.40 L6733 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Flew into trees in cloud, Tidenham Chase
26.08.40 N2606 Hurricane I, 5 OTU, Spun in, South Cerney
29.08.40 K8754 Anson I, 11 OTU, Undershot & hit haystack at night, Windrush
29.08.40 L5283 Battle I, 12 OTU, Engine cut on approach & hit wall, Aston Down
04.09.40 T5627 Tiger Moth II, 2 EFTS, Engine cut; spun into ground, Whitehall Cheltenham
09.09.40 P5885 Harvard I, 15 FTS, Spun in, near Brockworth
12.09.40 K7160 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Crashed, Aston Down
19.09.40 P5885 Harvard I, 14 SFTS, Spun in, near Brockworth
20.09.40 N7987 Master I, 5 OTU, Broke up in flight, Cherrington
20.09.40 N9821 Anson I, 2 SFTS, Collision with Oxford P9039, 3m S of Little Rissington
20.09.40 P9039 Oxford I, 2 SFTS, Collision with Anson N9821, 3m S of Little Rissington
23.09.40 L8797 Blenheim IV, 17 OTU, Crashlanded after engine cut, Quedgeley
24.09.40 N1192 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Hit HT wires & crashed, Frampton-on-Severn
25.09.40 L1184 Blenheim I, 104 Sqn, Believed destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L1189 Blenheim I, 104 Sqn, Believed destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L1193 Blenheim I, 104 Sqn, Believed destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L4476 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L4507 Beaufort I, 42 Sqn, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L9870 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 L9880 Beaufort I, 22 Sqn, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
25.09.40 N1157 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid, Filton
27.09.40 2162 / U8+FK Bf 110, ZG 26, Shot down by Hurricane, Fishponds, Bristol
01.10.40 L1946 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Dived into ground, near Beachley
03.10.40 L1106 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Undershot & hit wall, Aston Down
05.10.40 G-AFDL DH.91 Albatross, Imperial Airways, Crashed, Pucklechurch
08.10.40 P1271 Hampden I, 16 OTU, Broke up in flight, Home Farm, Highnam
09.10.40 L1977 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Spun in, near Stroud
11.10.40 K7447 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on night landing, Babdown Farm
11.10.40 K9730 Hector I, 20 MU, Crashed on forced landing, Bishops Cleeve
13.10.40 N1183 Beaufort I, Bristol, Destroyed in air raid before delivery, Filton
20.10.40 P9039 Oxford I, 2 FTS, Collided with Avro Anson N9821, near Little Rissington
23.10.40 K7412 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on night landing, Babdown Farm
23.10.40 L1106 Blenheim I, 5 OTU, Crashed, Aston Down
23.10.40 P6274 Proctor I, 8 MU, Flew into ground in poor visibility, Hillcot Wood, Andoversford
28.10.40 K6537 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Crashed, Tiltups End, 1m S of Nailsworth
29.10.40 N5285 Anson I, 6 FTS, Collided with Avro Anson N9737 of No.11 AONS, 10m N of Stow on the Wold
01.11.40 K7452 Audax I, 9 FTS, Crashed on approach, Babdown Farm
13.11.40 N6336 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Hit wall on forced landing, North Cerney
16.11.40 L4893 Blenheim I, A&AEE, Stalled in circuit, Filton 17.11.40 K6496 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Crashed on approach, Babdown Farm
18.11.40 P1078 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed into hill, Woodchester
24.11.40 451 / 4U+HL Ju 88A-5, 3(F)123, Shot down by Hurricanes, Coates
28.11.40 N6330 Oxford I, 3 FTS, Crashed on night approach, Bibury
29.11.40 K6438 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Stalled on take-off, Babdown Farm
30.11.40 K6447 Hart Trainer, 9 FTS, Damaged on landing, Babdown Farm
03.12.40 K5175 Audax I, 9 FTS, Hit wall in forced landing, 3m E of Painswick
05.12.40 L2124 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Tipped up on landing, Moreton-in-Marsh
13.12.40 R5064 Tiger Moth II, 2 EFTS, Flew into hill in cloud, Birdlip
17.12.40 L1902 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Flew into ground in poor visibility, Andoversford
23.12.40 N6277 Oxford I, 2 FTS, Hit tree & crashed at night, Southrop
28.12.40 L1700 Hurricane I, 55 OTU, Dived into ground, Saul
BeermatWas it still a P-51 screen you were after for it? Eyes still peeled!
John, I’ll use that site – thanks for that tip-off!
Matt
BeermatHmm.. I have been casting my mind back. There were more in Stroud – an Oxford that flew into houses at Cashes Green and – and this is the only possible candidate, I DO remember fieldwalking with a detector somewhere up behind Stroud, with Allan White and Ian, finding very small fragments of what I had always recalled as a Hurricane in a ploughed field. Sorry my memory failed me before about that one, still, definitely no Gladiators that I recall.
Ian, do you remember that one? We didn’t expect to find anything, and a few tiny fragments were something of a result? I think my mate Adrian was there too, if that helps?
BeermatI was a keen 14 year old living near Stroud in 1984, and was out every weekend on my bike researching air crashes in the Stroud area for the Severnside Aviation Society, which I was in with Ian at the time. I had not heard of any Gladiator collision in 1940 in the area. I’d certainly know if one was dug at Callowell in ’84 – I could practically see it from my house, and I’d have made sure I’d got to the dig.
The incident as reported sounds like a forced landing brought about after contact, hence no accident card. The parts are possibly from another aircraft? Have you a positive ID on them as Gladiator?
There is a famous “Wellington in a pond” up there, though more Whiteshill way. That one was from a bomber OTU, lost on its way back from leafleting somewhere.
Collision wise, there was one later over Nether Lypiatt between a Mustang I and 52 OTU Spitfire (I think) and an incident between a 5 OTU Hurricane and Ju88 near Chalford. The only other Stroud incident in 1940 that I am aware of was a Blenheim at Frampton Mansell from June 1940 – which I found fragments from in the summer of 84.
The more I think about it, the more this sounds like two stories have become conflated.
BeermatI guess these were US engined aircraft. Hamilton seemed to design prop blades to match the engine, with only a lenghthwise cropping as a concession to the flight envelope of the type – back to front in terms of power absorbtion against other factors and somewhat lazy and innefficient or practical and easy to follow depending on bias.
DH designed to type – or rather, took a Hamilton drawing chosen for twist, solidity and AF appropriate to the aircraft, and gave it their own number. This made things much harder to untangle 80 years later.
I am working on matching the remainder of the blades in my spreadsheet. I have evidence that a lot more of the apparently DH-designed later, larger blades were also Hamilton licenced adaptions.
BeermatJust had a coffee and realised that all those props listed for the Stirling were for the MkII with Wright engines and which never existed beyond a prototype. Odd little table that, I guess it shows the only RAF (or potentially so) aircraft that had interchangeable US prop equipment at the time. In that it is instructive.
BeermatYes – it was a classic ‘long shot’ that really paid off well. In amongst a lot of images of Spitfire metal bashing were two images of a completed Whirlwind rear fuselage with other components posed around it. With enormous thanks to the volunteer who copied all of the images – there was so much that we completely missed the WW stuff at first. The clear photos included the radio tray – a part we had no information on (and which we were going to adapt a Spitfire design for). Because of the long-shot dig through the archive of a Devon bus garage, we have now manufactured a 100% accurate substantial part where there was no infornation before.
BeermatI have just caught up after a festive break from all things aeroplane and have seen this thread. Thank you very much indeed for this, AM – it confirms some things that deduction brought me to (the Lancaster Hamilton numbers – for which I have profiles) and fills in a few gaps (Srirling equivalents are particularly helpful in arriving at profiles for that range of Hercules DH blades).
Ossington, there will be a book if I can pursuade a publisher of the demand. I’ll use your post in my evidence, if that’s ok.
BeermatYes – it’s a study in itself seeing how 3’views and profiles varied over the years. I don’t think ‘Chinese whispers’ is allowed as a phrase any more, but the guesswork and misinterpretation began in the 1960’s and just got worse. The result has been that Airfix, who somehow got hold of the only drawings to survive the Yeovil airfield flooding, produced the most accurate Whirlwind model in general shape terms 50 years ago! I have confirmed this against 1938 wind tunnel models.
That publication is a useful photo reference – though it is another tantalusing glimpse of what the IWM holds as glass slides but won’t let anyone access for their own reasons. That’s the only archive we haven’t ‘tapped’.
BeermatThanks, yes we do have that. Between us I think we have everyrhing published, plus some primary sources that show us what to trust and what is dubious!
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