And what punishment would you suggest for those responsible for ‘beating to death’ two ten year old boys?

….please lets be accurate with our flippancy Mr Door sir. I said the ’10 year old boys AND their parents’.

Are we back on the point of them being poor little 10yr old boys now?.

CD,

I’m not for the empowering of the state to kill. As with all crimes against the very foundation of our society I would like to see the perpetrators removed from society. Not to the ‘familiar’ surroundings of a prison where the inmate benefits from the advances our society has built over the millennia, but, total exclusion from any form of organised society. To me that is the price you pay for deciding you dont have to follow the same basic premise as everyone else.

When I mentioned ‘kicking away the ladder’ earlier I wasnt talking of the state acting though. I was talking of the community acting and believe me the will was there to do just that. I’m very sure the worthy forum members herein will harrumph mightily about the injustices of vigilante-ism, of precedents being set, of the overarching rule of law and, of course, they are technically quite right. Being in the community at that time though, and knowing what the mood was, both boys and both sets of parents would, I have no doubts whatsoever, have been beaten to death or hung. This is I think the ‘real-world’ element that some posters here are missing. This isn’t an academic point to be discussed over brunch like the next conversation topic. This was an event that caused a huge, deeply felt, outpouring of anger, rage and revulsion in the local community.

At the time I was about 19 or so and was in Aintree, on leave, only about 2 miles away from where it happened. Had they been caught hold of, given the way I remember feeling at the time, then yes I would have participated in what would have happened next. I would have been one of hundreds, if not thousands, though. Now, today, as a responsible late 30-something with a good job and the respect of friends and colleagues?. Yes I still would do the same because, you see, I have a baby daughter who is now almost exactly the same age as Jamie Bulger was when he was tortured to death. All I have to do is imagine my little girl suffering like he did and I would have little compunction to stop.

In short you are saying that you think we should try and ‘understand’ what drove Venables and Thompson to hit a defenceless 2yr old with bricks?. What happens if the result of your investigation is a 400 page report into their pyschological profiles which tells us nothing more than most locals already would tell you in 5 minutes flat. That they were a pair of mindless scallies who got kicks out of perverse violence and murder.

Does that bring back Jamie Bulger?. Does that erase the terror, pain and incomprehension that that little lad felt in his final hours at the hands of these ‘children’. No.

Does that move our understanding of the ‘human condition’ forward as much as one inch?. No.

Its self-serving psuedo-intellectual claptrap. Nothing more.

Dont read it that way at all Grey to be honest. You cant contradict yourself like Bumblebee is doing and expect not to be called on it.

Here she says that she in no way condones the actions of Venables and Thompson (and I believe she finds them as repellant as we all do), but, wants to know what motivated them to their actions?. As if that is in the slightest bit important when a 2 yr old lies dead after meeting his end in the most hideous and vile fashion.

She, with others, goes on to try and hoist in a wider debate on the merits of classing 10 year olds as adults – as if we are talking about ‘normal’ 10 year olds. Then proceeds to tell us that she knows that Venables and Thompson were not normal 10 year olds, but, that she supports the fact they were treated as such….because they were children after all?. Which is it?. If she believes they should have been treated as children then she must agree with the sentences that were passed on them. Those were the lenient penalties afforded children. She cannot have it both ways.

Normally I consider intellectual honesty, tolerance and objectivity to be rare gifts bestowed on people in todays society with lamentable infrequency. I am sure that Bumblebee is an erudite, balanced and thoughtful person. There has to be an acceptance that some issues are so stark, so absolute that objectivity doesnt apply though. This case is one of those.

You seem to be under the impression that I’m playing down what they did,which I can assure you I’m not. Of course the murder and torture of a child is indefensible so you don’t need to take that tone with me.

Yet you say:”What was it then that made these children inclined to do something so terrible ? They weren’t creatures Jonesy,they were children.”

What is that if not a search for justification for their behaviour?. No answer as to how you can debate this from the murdering scums side?. No comment on what these individuals had in common with children apart from a lack of physical maturity?.

If you think justice is best served by the public lynching of two children,that speaks for itself.

Justice???. You think justice has been served by treating them as children – as you keep advocating?. I’m certain there would have been no ‘justice’ served by stringing up that pair, but, a number of communities in the english speaking world would’ve been much safer over the past 9yrs.

The fact that they were ten years old isn’t irrelevant,it’s the complete heart of the whole discussion.

No it isnt. The heart of the discussion is the tortured corpse of a defenceless 2 year old. Something you need to remember.

Quite rightly,you point out that the majority of children aren’t torturers and murderers.What was it then that made these children inclined to do something so terrible ? They weren’t creatures Jonesy,they were children.

Bumblebee even the damned minority of 10 year olds aren’t torturers and murderers!. This pair were not children in any definition of the word child I am familiar with. Barring for chronological age. As I’ve already said if a child is capable, mentally, of committing crimes of this, adult, severity why should they not be punished according to their crime?. I see no reason to exempt them simply because they are not as physically ‘developed’ as their minds clearly were at the time.

Would you let a ten year old vote,drink alcohol,have sex ? No,because they’re not mature enough to deal with these things – in other words,they’re not adults.But almost without exception everyone who has posted has held them culpable of this crime as if they were adults.

…and precisely what has the permission to allow normal 10 years olds to vote, drink or have sex have to do with this?. We aren’t talking about the level of maturity of a 10 year old. We are talking about the level of maturity, mentally, of two 10 year olds who pushed batteries into a 2 year old boys anus.Do you think the two things are related in any way shape or form. In case you are in any doubt they aren’t!!!.

Jonesy,you say there is no room for debate,but that’s rarely the case with any topic. Would you hold the same opinion if you were the father of one of these boys?

I’m from Liverpool originally and I remember this happening. The mood in the city was to swing those two lads from the lamp posts in front of the law courts. I would have kicked the ladder away then and I would now. If I was either boys father the shame would have killed me – if the mob didn’t first. That is your room for debate. This isn’t ‘any topic’ this is the cruel, twisted and pitiless murder of a defenceless 2yr old child….you find a way to debate that from the side of the killers!.

JoeyR If you can’t see grey then I cannot comment further other than to say that to see black and white is only to see extremes. Life is made up of complexity and enigma and however beautiful or however terrible an experience or an act, it is never just black or just white.

What is the point of that statement?. We aren’t talking about generalised attitudes to life any more than we are talking about the general issue of whether 10 year olds can be punished as adults!!!!.

We ARE talking about two SPECIFIC 10 year olds who committed crimes of adulthood. Crimes that were so abhorrent they leave no scope for interpretation – none whatsoever. There were no justifications, no excuses, no reasons for these creatures to take the vile actions they did. There is no other description possible for them than ‘evil’. There is no room for debate on this point as there is no possible contrary position.

Having committed crimes of adulthood they should have been tried, and punished, as adults. As stated my preference would be for an irrevocable banishment from general civilised society rather than being put to death by the state. By nature I am opposed to big government and I, personally, dislike the idea of the state getting to grips with the idea of the sanctioned killing of its population. To me, though, there is no hint of grey regarding the topic of these boys being kept safe solely on their chronological ages when their considered actions were those of fully ‘developed’ adults – its just wrong.

Where is the room for ‘grey’ here?. They were/are brutal child murderers. They tortured a 2 year old child to death. I dont know what your experience of children is, but, 10 year olds do not commit acts of depravity like this.

Their actions were those of the most hideously disturbed adult and, if they are capable of that depth of crime, they should have been judged on those terms. That they were physically 10 years old is completely and utterly irrelevent. Their crimes are the marker of how they should have been prosecuted.