JonesyNo it wont, EU will collapse sooner or later, its a crock of corruption, staffed by people who cannot be trusted, we will enjoy successful trading with our European friends post EU and the rest of the world.
So when the EU falls we shall band together in a successful trading relationship with our European friends….a European Union you might call it?!. We dont need this ‘wheel’ invention….we need round things with hubs that can go on the side of carts and suchlike and make them go faster….lets invent those instead.
JonesyLeave and it could still end up costing us more in the future…unless we plan not to trade in the EU!.
JonesyJohn,
They have huge influence over the people that do make the law. As individuals there is a reasonable chance that their star will continue to shine as long as their companies enjoy success. Politicians are no more than seeds in the wind. (Good day for mixed metaphors..)
If their companies enjoy success why shouldnt stars shine?.
“Politicians are no more than seeds in the wind” mixed messages as well as metaphors it seems. Merkel-the-Conqueror on one hand and transient nuisance on the other?. What next?. You’ll be going back on the claim that Europe costs us £350mn a week soon!. :eagerness:
JonesyWhy Bilderberg Won’t Allow BREXIT
Wow. That wasnt skewed and amateurish at all. I lasted about 30 seconds….did it get better or did it stay wince-inducing the whole way through?
JonesyBruce – re your earlier post and for the sake of balance and clarity the pound euro rate has fluctuated wildly since its inception. From highs of 1.45/1.50 to lows of 1.13/1.14 where at close to these levels it spent most of 2013/2014. So nothing new – we’ve seen it all before as I know only too well from my years doing business across the EU. But I fully expect the Remainers to make as much mileage as they can from the “catastrophic ” fall in sterling while conveniently omitting to mention that it’s all happened before …..
Not sure I get the logic there Charlie?. Yes the value of the pound fluctuates….that doesnt mean that its a sensible thing to take steps that you know will push it down deliberately though?!.
As to the extension issue is that really a big event?. The site was unavailable for 100 minutes?. For how long before that was it degraded….how many people tried to use it then, in that degraded state, and gave up before the actual fail?. Which 100 minute segment do you select otherwise to redress the specificly missing time?. What is the actual crime if people who wouldnt have got a vote but genuinely wanted one can actually get a vote….is that such a bad thing….provided there is an actual cut off that is adhered to. Surely it was arbitrary date/time in the first place?.
JonesyIt is untidy and poorly handled I’d agree with that. Having said that though I’d make the point that we want this to be as representative as possible dont we?.
Leave is saying that they are all for the people of this country to have their sovereign voice. If people want to have their say but cant because they have been poorly organised setting up their registration is that stopping the vote being as representative as it could be?. If Leave complain about it how can they say they are all for the voices of the UK population being heard loudest if they arent willing to allow people to express their wishes?.
If it is a forgone conclusion that the young will vote Remain, which I’m not so quick to believe having a 20yr old daughter with her own views, isnt that a legitimate facet of the democratic process. Should the young be denied the opportunity to vote because they are pre-disposed to vote a certain way?.
The flip side of this is a wider observation that is one that does go to redress some deep concerns I’ve had building over the past couple of months.
If you look at the US election the democratic process has coughed up the choice of Trump or Clinton. Trump being a man I’d not trust with my tv remote control….let alone the greatest nuclear arsenal on the planet. Over here I have lost count of the number of people, apparently intelligent and articulate ‘normal’ people, who seem to believe that someone should be telling them ‘honestly’ which way to vote. Either that or people, sagely, stating they intend to vote with their hearts not their heads. Its hurtling nonsense…do you drive with your heart?. Do you sit in your car and say ‘my head tells me I should drive sensibly and obey laws and speed limits….but my heart tells me I feel I should reverse down this motorway at 40mph….I know I’ll vote with my heart!. No. Every time I hear this idiocy I scream a little inside and lose a bit more faith in people. I have been seriously concerned that we may be seeing the beginning of the end for democracy!.
At least this number of people racing to get registered shows there is at least some small glimmer of hope that some are still interested in the concept of democracy!.
JonesyIt must surely be apparent to the many, that those who support the IN campaign or lobby on its behalf, are either uncritical idealogues who prop up this corrupt EU organisation totally without regard to the EU’s unprincipled activities or, in some way derive their living by close association with people of a type who remain unconnected with the word ‘democracy’..
Its funny…the thing I keep noticing on this debate is the frequency of words like idealogue, chicanery and undemocratic from the Leave side. Some focus on sovereignty….some focus on immigration….some focus on nascent colonisation and Merkel the Unflattering ushering in the next Reich via the back door. Not sure ‘Ein reich, ein volk, ein Brussels subcommittee’ is quite as terrible as the last time round but still. Point is its all wonderfully detached and conceptual….deckchairs on the Titanic as the saying goes.
Remain seems pretty much drilled down the trade and the economy. Real, tangible, food-on-table stuff. Its the ability to continue doing successful business, as described so clearly above, its the need to develop opportunity with other big players as a market of 500mn consumers. Not pretending that a lone state of 65mn people can negotiate deals from the same poisition of strength. A position further eroded by a decision to leave a trading bloc that half our trade went to….in international, financial, eyes thats not the act of a strong and proud nation, rather, its the act of a bunch of idiots who’ve just rolled the dice with half their trade and the easy, dependable, half at that. Who wants to do business with idiots???.
Just an amusing little observation.
Jonesy“True democracy would be an absurdity in functional terms.”
So the UK electorate having a referendum, is in reality, a total waste of time, and having Sovereignty, control of our borders & the choice to have who we want and how many to have is, post Brexit, unlikely to happen as the elected MP’s think they know better and will vote accordingly to under mind the Electorate’s democratic choice…
Do you think there might be a little unrest in the UK if it happened…
I think you’ve got to see that this follows on quite well from Bruces very astute point above….
You cant have a referendum on every issue…you cant have a referendum on even a small subset of the issues investigated, ratified and voted into law by Parliament. Its an unworkable absurdity. Its that mentioned concept of ‘unrealistic Utopia’…unless we somehow get Ant & Dic to have a phone-in vote “every Saturday night live on BBC-1” the democracy X-factor maybe.
No we rely on a multiparty parliamentry democracy….we do so in the full knowledge of dear old Winstons indelible prophecy that it is “the worst form of governance……save for all the rest” on just that basis. We dont have a better system yet. Until you or someone else comes up with better we give our elected MP’s our proxy to act as they see fit in our name. That means they will act as they see fit. If you dont like them you try and do something about it at the next election.
So, no, I dont think there would be ‘unrest’ as I think most know they live in a parliamentry democracy. I think most who vote Leave will wonder why they did because they wont see the foreign hordes turned from our shore and will find we still have to pay in to the EU to trade with them. Then they might wonder what possessed them to believe in the leadership of Nige Farage and Boris Johnson!.
Civics lesson over.
JonesyMPs ‘considering using majority’ to keep UK in single market
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36457120
Erm….we live in a parliamentry democracy. True democracy would be an absurdity in functional terms. We vote for MP’s. The MP’s take the actions their proposed policies mandate. I’m not sure how anything noted here is undemocratic?.
JonesyNot sure I get the gist of where youre going with this?. Those companies, as well as many smaller ones plus national/tier-1 carriers, all interface with law enforcement already. The key word is ‘illegal’ in the phrase illegal online hate speech. For this crackdown to be enforced the hate speech must be illegal…therefore contrary to a defined and ratified legislation somewhere in the EU…as indicated earlier we have our own on this. If the speech is deemed illegal, in those terms, its hard to say other than it should be combatted in my view?.
The outstanding question may be what kind of speech can be made illegal. There does seem to be a substantial body of evidence from member states judiciaries on that subject though. Providing all legislation still has to get past an EU Parliament veto I dont see an immediate issue or any hints of Orwellian ‘1984’ style thought crimes looming on the horizon?
JonesyDont get upset John. Just look at Bluesky’s Carney video. Watch all 20 minutes and when you get to about 17:50 see Carney laugh at Rees-Moggs petulant attempt to points score. Thats the way you all look pretty much. Maybe when you see it so clearly it’ll wake you up?.
JonesyJonesy…
Here’s the EU chipping away at the foundation of Free Speech again, see if you can put a shine on this…
What do you mean put a shine on it?. The article itself cites a number of instances where member state national law has already brought cases for exactly the same bloody thing that youre whining the EU is darkly plotting to enforce on us all?. Typically you’ve got it backwards…the EU is behind member states own rulings not ahead of them!. Maybe read your own articles before posting them?. In the UK we’ve had this on the books for a decade!
The Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006 (c. 1) is an Act of the Parliament of the United Kingdom which creates an offence in England and Wales of inciting hatred against a person on the grounds of their religion.
Section 29B:
(1) A person who uses threatening words or behaviour, or displays any written material which is threatening, is guilty of an offence if he intends thereby to stir up religious hatred.
Edit: Did you actually watch the Rees-Mogg/Carney clip…..theres an intellectual mismatch!. Carney is trying to talk down to Ress-Moggs level!. Savage him???. Seriously!
Sorry to pick on you here BlueSky but you’re showing exactly what the big problem here is. You dont understand what you are listening to and are just swallowing what you are reading. There are too many on the Leave side doing the same. They dont understand the severity of the decision theyre making….its just like those voting for Trump in the States….people are getting too stupid or lazy to do the research themselves. I’ve given up on the number of times I’ve heard voters moaning on the radio that they are fed up of being fed propaganda and just want someone to tell them the truth. How stupid are these people??.
The objective, honest and credible sources are the first attacked by the opposite side as to prevent exactly that advice being available…look at Rees-Mogg trying to bite at Mark Carney’s heels. That should tell you everything you need to know on this debate.
JonesyYou have to laugh at some of the alarmist western rhetoric coming out about this type — as if the USCG “National Security Cutters” aren’t basically the same thing. The substantive difference being that, unlike the prudent Chinese, USN wasn’t sensible enough to field a modern frigate design for USCG to derive from in the first place (or even to go in the other direction from USCG to USN). Indeed, given that the USCG’s NSCs have gas turbine propulsion whilst the new CCG types do not, the former would appear much more warship-like.
Has there been a lot of alarmist rhetoric?. Can’t say I’ve seen any yet?. No reason why there should be….its not like coastguard vessels of this size and configuration are especially rare?.
JonesyHowever trade is a two way street; countries will still wish to sell to us. The EU will still wish to sell to us, which means we can place an obligation on them to buy from us. But it will be different; we just don’t know how different.
That is a valid point of course….to me though its a very stylised view. Its the view of one partner towards another. The view of our relationship with the other member states as it is.
In an exit we are going to step out of that seat and become competitors. We will be vying for business against our former partners. In that, changed, paradigm how long can we anticipate a friendly and open trading relationship continuing?. If orders for British built Jaguars start to hit sales of equivalent brands in the EU how hard would it be to accept a quick bout of protectionism and take the hit of diminished UK sales to massively put a dent in Jaguars EU sales and knock out the competition?. Recently 80% of Jaguar cars made are exported and continental Europe is the 2nd highest volume destination behind China.
This extends to the rest of the manufacturing sector as well. Again its hard to look past the 50% trade with EU figure. We are massively exposed to variation in policy from the EU no matter what. My point is that they would be much better placed to engage in the kind of ‘limited’ trade war outlined than we are. They know that in the long run they’d win so, facing a threat from the UK, theres no reason for them not to hit us.
John,
We’re talking about very complex relationships across a range of subject areas. If you cant see why single-issue focus counts you out of having an opinion of any value I’m not going to be the one to educate you.
Anyway you keep talking about hasbeen politicians….the grown ups will focus on the important bit….the economy. As for X-Factor popularity….sure….everyone talked up the Scottish leave vote and the Labour vote in the last elections. Vocal minorities tend to be just that…noisy and soon forgotten.
JonesyThis man has no problem explaining how he is going to vote. he seems to have the tee shirt.
What a find that gentleman is!. Single-issue motivated and a self-declared failure. He was on an EU committee for 2yrs that was unable to reach a conclusion?. I’d say thats more indicative of the real problem with the EU…the modest quality of those who’re involved with trying to operate it!. This guy seems quick to point the finger at his committee opposite numbers, but, where was his leadership to move his agenda forward.
No-one in the EU is getting what they want on fishing across the board. French and Spanish fishermen have just the same experiences as ours do and the EU allows common rules to be applied to all member states boats and enforcement to be even handed across all. Overfishing and stock depletion is a real thing…bleating about EU rules wont change that.
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