JonesyIndeed very tragic news….I’ve been aboard the old UK O class boats, same as Ja’s had time on, and I’d not wish to think about the last few hours those men had. The images that such a thought conjures up are simply horrific.
Is there any news on what caused the sinking yet Crobato?. Have any of the other Ming boats been recalled or had deployments cancelled that might suggest a type fault?
One thing I noticed was that the crew complement reported lost was 15 hands stronger than the normal required aboard the Mings of 55. I wonder if this was a training deployment and the extras were apprentices or midshipmen? Makes the tragedy even worse, of course, but it may also be a factor in the boats loss.
Respects to those still on patrol.
JonesyIndeed very tragic news….I’ve been aboard the old UK O class boats, same as Ja’s had time on, and I’d not wish to think about the last few hours those men had. The images that such a thought conjures up are simply horrific.
Is there any news on what caused the sinking yet Crobato?. Have any of the other Ming boats been recalled or had deployments cancelled that might suggest a type fault?
One thing I noticed was that the crew complement reported lost was 15 hands stronger than the normal required aboard the Mings of 55. I wonder if this was a training deployment and the extras were apprentices or midshipmen? Makes the tragedy even worse, of course, but it may also be a factor in the boats loss.
Respects to those still on patrol.
Jonesy15 year old Glenmorangie – smoother than silk and burns like napalm on the way down. Nectar of the gods…and I dont hate my child – she’s the only source of cheap labour available to me.:)
Jack Daniels, Jim Beam and I used to be very good friends and I still enjoy the odd drop of bourbon, no comparison to a good malt though!
Jonesy15 year old Glenmorangie – smoother than silk and burns like napalm on the way down. Nectar of the gods…and I dont hate my child – she’s the only source of cheap labour available to me.:)
Jack Daniels, Jim Beam and I used to be very good friends and I still enjoy the odd drop of bourbon, no comparison to a good malt though!
JonesyWell no it doesnt really make me wonder at all I’m afraid. It’s already been quite clearly written down on this thread that the oil reserves are the route to Iraqs reconstruction who is suprised that a prime concern was the protection of the source of that reconstruction?.
Certainly we took serious enough heed of the physical oil installations that, apparently, the timetable of the whole conflict was advanced to the extent of going in and securing the southern fields when the first hints of a demolitions order on them was given. It would be held up, by exactly the same people who’re whining now, as grossly irresponsible and negligent on the part of the yanks and the brits, to protect the oil production facilities and not secure all the records and administrative facilities that orchestrate that oil production. Especially if the destruction of those administrative faciities hampered the generation of revenue to alleviate the suffering of the poor Iraqi citizenry.
Should there have been more protection of hospitals, museums and the suchlike. Yes of course there should have been. If the situation was that they had the uncommited troops to protect the oil infrastucture or a few hospitals in the centre of Baghdad though I’d say they made the right choice. It seems to me the decision was likely to have been save the means to treat a couple of thousand Iraqi civillians or save the means to rebuild an entire country. Not a hard decision in those terms is it?
JonesyWell no it doesnt really make me wonder at all I’m afraid. It’s already been quite clearly written down on this thread that the oil reserves are the route to Iraqs reconstruction who is suprised that a prime concern was the protection of the source of that reconstruction?.
Certainly we took serious enough heed of the physical oil installations that, apparently, the timetable of the whole conflict was advanced to the extent of going in and securing the southern fields when the first hints of a demolitions order on them was given. It would be held up, by exactly the same people who’re whining now, as grossly irresponsible and negligent on the part of the yanks and the brits, to protect the oil production facilities and not secure all the records and administrative facilities that orchestrate that oil production. Especially if the destruction of those administrative faciities hampered the generation of revenue to alleviate the suffering of the poor Iraqi citizenry.
Should there have been more protection of hospitals, museums and the suchlike. Yes of course there should have been. If the situation was that they had the uncommited troops to protect the oil infrastucture or a few hospitals in the centre of Baghdad though I’d say they made the right choice. It seems to me the decision was likely to have been save the means to treat a couple of thousand Iraqi civillians or save the means to rebuild an entire country. Not a hard decision in those terms is it?
JonesyVery neatly pointed out Sauron
JonesyVery neatly pointed out Sauron
JonesyWhat a tremendously well spun mythology that was Mixtec!.
Saddam Hussein agreed to certain things after being defeated in 1991 chief amongst which was that he’d surrender his WMD capacity within 15 days of the official end of Desert Storm.
He did everything within his power, up to and including moving some of his WMD stocks abroad for later retrieval, to defeat the mission of the UNSCOM inspectors and to “beat” UNSC resolution 687. After 7 years of face-off’s with UNSCOM inspectors he, unilaterally, withdrew Iraqi Government compliance with the UNSCOM mission removing the Govt facilitators such that no site in Iraq would accept the authority of UNSCOM and grant inspectors access.
With this situation in existence UNSCOM was rendered utterly impotent and was withdrawn. In an attempt to force Hussein to recall the reason why UNSCOM was in his country a small, punitive, aide memoire was laid on for him in the shape of Operation Desert Fox in 1998.
This was expected, just like the Eldorado Canyon operation in Libya 12 years earlier, to re-focus his attention on the need to comply, not with the US, with UNSCOM and the articles of Resolution 687 that he accepted in 1991. Unfortunately, for all concerned, Desert Fox had no political effect.
Hussein was then left for nearly 5 years in the optimistic hope that a breaking point would be created by the economic sanctions on his country and that he would, finally, accept that compliance with 687 would be his best option. The alternative hope was that his people might be prodded past the point they could tolerate the situation and would take matters into their own hands. Either would have done.
With a visible demonstration of a resurgent militaristic streak in the US Govt being seen just across the Persian Gulf and talk coming from the hawks in Washington about dealing with the Iraq question once and for all Saddam acceeded to UNMOVIC inspectors entering his country. To him this was perfect as all he had to do was keep them scurrying about in Iraq for another 7 years and he’d be safe from another crushing military conflict with the US and its allies.
So he attempted this in the same old way that worked with UNSCOM and we saw govt. monitors accompanying inspectors to sites where they found utterly sanitised, i.e not even a scrap of paper in a wastebasket, offices. Labs with mysterious spaces where equipment had been installed but “had broken and been thrown away” et, etc. Only at times when Hans Blix was due to present a report to the UNSC where sudden rushes of assistance forthcoming which, naturally, had the effect of tempering heavily critical UNMOVIC reports before they could provide the trigger for the US and UK. Be under no illusion this would still be happening now if Chiraq and his do-nothingers had been allowed to talk Bush, Blair and Aznar out of action.
As to the US being “lucky” that Saddam Hussein was such a bad ruler that the Iraqi’s were just glad to get rid of him. I’d say that is a very novel opinion as I’d have thought it was quite unlucky for the Iraqi population to have a Saddam Hussein ruling them for such a long time.
JonesyWhat a tremendously well spun mythology that was Mixtec!.
Saddam Hussein agreed to certain things after being defeated in 1991 chief amongst which was that he’d surrender his WMD capacity within 15 days of the official end of Desert Storm.
He did everything within his power, up to and including moving some of his WMD stocks abroad for later retrieval, to defeat the mission of the UNSCOM inspectors and to “beat” UNSC resolution 687. After 7 years of face-off’s with UNSCOM inspectors he, unilaterally, withdrew Iraqi Government compliance with the UNSCOM mission removing the Govt facilitators such that no site in Iraq would accept the authority of UNSCOM and grant inspectors access.
With this situation in existence UNSCOM was rendered utterly impotent and was withdrawn. In an attempt to force Hussein to recall the reason why UNSCOM was in his country a small, punitive, aide memoire was laid on for him in the shape of Operation Desert Fox in 1998.
This was expected, just like the Eldorado Canyon operation in Libya 12 years earlier, to re-focus his attention on the need to comply, not with the US, with UNSCOM and the articles of Resolution 687 that he accepted in 1991. Unfortunately, for all concerned, Desert Fox had no political effect.
Hussein was then left for nearly 5 years in the optimistic hope that a breaking point would be created by the economic sanctions on his country and that he would, finally, accept that compliance with 687 would be his best option. The alternative hope was that his people might be prodded past the point they could tolerate the situation and would take matters into their own hands. Either would have done.
With a visible demonstration of a resurgent militaristic streak in the US Govt being seen just across the Persian Gulf and talk coming from the hawks in Washington about dealing with the Iraq question once and for all Saddam acceeded to UNMOVIC inspectors entering his country. To him this was perfect as all he had to do was keep them scurrying about in Iraq for another 7 years and he’d be safe from another crushing military conflict with the US and its allies.
So he attempted this in the same old way that worked with UNSCOM and we saw govt. monitors accompanying inspectors to sites where they found utterly sanitised, i.e not even a scrap of paper in a wastebasket, offices. Labs with mysterious spaces where equipment had been installed but “had broken and been thrown away” et, etc. Only at times when Hans Blix was due to present a report to the UNSC where sudden rushes of assistance forthcoming which, naturally, had the effect of tempering heavily critical UNMOVIC reports before they could provide the trigger for the US and UK. Be under no illusion this would still be happening now if Chiraq and his do-nothingers had been allowed to talk Bush, Blair and Aznar out of action.
As to the US being “lucky” that Saddam Hussein was such a bad ruler that the Iraqi’s were just glad to get rid of him. I’d say that is a very novel opinion as I’d have thought it was quite unlucky for the Iraqi population to have a Saddam Hussein ruling them for such a long time.
JonesyDont know who this guy is but he’s answering the question “How to end the war”. Well done that man.
I dont think anything more needs to be said!.
JonesyDont know who this guy is but he’s answering the question “How to end the war”. Well done that man.
I dont think anything more needs to be said!.
JonesyDomin
Hey I drive a mondeo and i’m lovely… and i don’t smoke either… and i can drive pretty well
Apologise unreservedly, you are obviously an exception that proves the rule – also you live in Norfolk so its not at all likely you’re one of the muppets that, daily, rake their fingernails across the blackboard of my motoring life!!!:D
There does, however, appear to be a nest of mid-blue and, occasionally, red Mondeos in the Warrington area that seem to have the sole function of pulling into clear motorway fast-lanes to do an exact 70.0mph just when you’re on a speed run and need to be a long way away very quickly. Usually they can manage to time it to just the very split second before you cross the point that braking will not stop the impact as well which increases the comedy value immensly.
Stop smoking hah!, its an old joke but when my nervous breakdown comes I intend to enjoy it – I’ve earned it!!!!:D
JonesyDomin
Hey I drive a mondeo and i’m lovely… and i don’t smoke either… and i can drive pretty well
Apologise unreservedly, you are obviously an exception that proves the rule – also you live in Norfolk so its not at all likely you’re one of the muppets that, daily, rake their fingernails across the blackboard of my motoring life!!!:D
There does, however, appear to be a nest of mid-blue and, occasionally, red Mondeos in the Warrington area that seem to have the sole function of pulling into clear motorway fast-lanes to do an exact 70.0mph just when you’re on a speed run and need to be a long way away very quickly. Usually they can manage to time it to just the very split second before you cross the point that braking will not stop the impact as well which increases the comedy value immensly.
Stop smoking hah!, its an old joke but when my nervous breakdown comes I intend to enjoy it – I’ve earned it!!!!:D
JonesyIvan,
Jonesy mate, somehow I just knew you’d be a fellow smoker… don’t ask me why or how!?!
LOL!. Guess its my natural sunny disposition that gave it away!? Not least the fact that I’ve never been known to go off on a ranting diatribe at someone who’s gotten underneath my skin!!!:D:rolleyes:
As to the biggest smokers in Europe I honestly would have said the French despite the fact that Gitanes are absolutely hideous!. Second guess would be the Scottish having worked, inside a perpetual smokescreen, at our Dundee office for a few weeks!. Be interested to know who it is!!!
Ben,
Yes. I must admit to smoking in the car, I see it as the lesser of two evils as I spend a fair bit of each working day sat on the M6 or M60 motorways near Manchester dealing with Mondeo driving muppets who’ve presumably found their licenses inside Cornflakes packets. Smoking in this case is definitely good for their health.;)
Besides, I have a child that believes the high-pressure water lines at garage car-washes are the ultimate toy so cleaning the car out at the weekend is getting to be a routine and a pretty good laugh!
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