This for those who will enjoy it – you know who you are!!! 😀

sincerest apologies to Snowman and Hand but this really did make me laugh!!!!

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The French Question
Moral Dilemma…

You are the President of the U.S.A. and you’ve just learned that there is an asteroid headed for France that will wipe out their entire country.

It is scheduled to hit about 2.30 a.m. in just two days time from now. You have enough ships and military personnel nearby to evacuate them safely, but all unitsare on stand-by tasking for war with Iraq.

Your question:…

Do you set the VCR to record the asteroid hitting France, or Do you stay up to watch it live? 😀

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Ink,

I completely agree that expert analysis is important when viewing such a highly complex conflict live on Sky. The problem is that we generally receive all our expert opinion from one of the military sides.

I see your point and I’d absolutely agree with it, media management IS undoubtably in play here by the coalition BUT I’d say that it isnt that heavy AND you have the scarcely concealed antiwar rhetoric from journalists like Rageh Omaar and David Chater offsetting every positive statement that the military advisors come out with.

Today Rageh Omaar made a report regarding this terrible accident in Baghdad stating that he had no idea what the military target could have been when he had absolutely no idea what may have been in the area!? Later we hear that the US had some strikes going in against some kind of missile vehicles that had been, one can only assume deliberately, sited within 300ft of that civillian concentration. If the US doesnt target weapons like SSM batteries in Baghdad it gets fleeced for the casualties it takes from a few “backwards arabs” when they get used and, if it does take them on, causing civillian casualties because theyve been sited as to be effectively human-shielded they get painted as murderers. Dont you see the inequities of that situation?

Earlier on in the conflict we had David Chater decrying the coalition use of stealth aircraft as they gave the Iraqi citizens no warning to get to shelters!!!. I mean for christs sake……….!.

However, you’ll be glad to hear that I’ve been running around telling all my non-military-enthusiast friends that the resistance put up so far has been less than significant.

Bravo sir!. Ladies and gents here we see intellectual honesty at work and look hard ‘cos, as far as I can make out, its a bloody rare sight.

Steve,

What they left out was that the impact with the terrain was assisted by a ship’s defence projectile up its jacksie (I’m sure Steve can enlighten us as to what it was hit by).

Yep your quite right and most attentive in picking out the only RN blue-on-blue of that particular war. The projectile in question was one of two GWS30 Sea Dart missiles fired at an unidentified target, outside of the established free-flight box around San Carlos, by HMS Cardiff. The confusion was generated when a forensic inspection team, after the war, found no remains of a Sea Dart missile at the wreckage site so the crash theory was the only one that fit the circumstances. It wasnt til a second inspection was conducted three years later that ANY evidence of Cardiff’s involvement was found. Good conspiracy theory for those who like them though!. 😉

Why on Earth would any of you believe that things have changed since then? I can certainly see straight through all of the rhetoric and bullsh1t.

Its hard to say in the media that Iraqi’s are just p1ssing themselves with delight to see our lads in Basra when footage is showing pro-Saddam rallies chanting “down with Bush, down with Blair!”. Equally it would be hard for CENTCOM to say they’re pressing on Baghdad when the embedded media camera’s show everyone kicking back, having a smoke, round the NAAFI truck.

Is there still “rhetoric and bullsh1t” yes of course there is. For the first time though a lot of that bullsh1t is coming from the media and is being accepted as gospel by large segments of the public. Its interesting though how widely it has been shown and just how quiet and inactive some of our units have been allowed to be portrayed though. I thought there was something wrong with that, compared to the yanks, and there might be policy from MoD to intimate that our forces were weak and fragmented which, when it got to the Iraqi’s, might make ’em do something dumb. I’m still not sure whether this could’ve been the case or not but, with this Iraqi column heading out of Basra tonight, maybe its paid off. :rolleyes:

If any of the British on this forum think we have more in common with the USA than we do with our European neighbours after witnessing Bush’s address to CENTCOM at MacDill AFB just now I would be astounded. If I had to describe it I think the phrase “xenophobic christian fervour” would be pretty accurate to anybody hailing from outside of “God’s chosen country”.

Point one is that I dont think Bush’s views represent quite everybody in the US Steve which is news to no-one!. Point two is that I’d much rather us have more in common with a country that has the courage of its convictions, even if some of those convictions could stand a little tempering, than a country that refuses to help deal with a problem its already accepted needs dealing with and then demands it should be allowed to cash in on the aftermath when someone else has cleaned the problem up. Like Inks joke said – its not every day that the French can accuse another country of arrogance!.

Kev,

The distinction between what I’m saying and what you’ve written is in context. What I described was the ability to arrive at the most honest and accurate appraisal of a situation you can without resorting simply to the automatic emotional reaction of the moment. What you are talking about, in most of the cases below, is heroism. Heroism isnt an automatic reaction based solely on emotion. Heroism is knowing what the dangers are, sizing up the situation and still going on regardless to do something you know is massively unwise.

I accept though our respective natures regarding this are so opposed that we will never agree on the issue!.

Sincere regards lads,
Steve

Reply to Kev from preceeding page

Kev,

You’re doing it again Steve. YOU have to interpret those images for US?

I was presumptuous using the term “we” – I meant the UK MoD and I think YES people do need to have images placed in context for them. I make no apology for that as I’m certain, using myself as an example, where I to enter an operating theatre I wouldnt be able to make a good determination of what was going on without continuous expert commentry. After a few words of opinion on the topic from a reporter I’m sure I’d not be in a position to congratulate or castigate the surgeon on his work. This is exactly what people are doing here with the military though and it is grossly inappropriate.

You say it is encouraging the viewer to a higher level of empathy but then you imply we are not capable of understanding what we see. I think you’re wrong. Of course we are seeing civilian casualties and heartbreaking as it is we know they will occur and at the moment seem a lot less in number than during the 1991 conflict. We are seeing the actions of the coalition troops almost first hand. I can’t vouch for anyone else but I think I understand what I’m seeing.

Let me put it to you this way Kev people, civilian analysts and members of the public in the main, are crying and wringing their hands about how terrible it is for us to be facing resistance in the urban areas. The military, on the whole are saying that its no suprise and that provided the unconventionals stay tucked away they’re little threat to anyone strategically. Who do you expect to be closer representing the true picture?

If there is a failing in this “war” its that no proper explanation has been made about the difference between strategic and tactical action….perhaps this is the militaries failing as they may have expected it to be fairly straight forward. It doesnt seem that the ability to make that leap is very widespread though as we have A LOT of people suggesting that the whole things doomed to failure because a few tactical actions have dragged on a bit.

Please go and say that exact phrase to the families of any soldiers kiled or wounded in those areas.

Tactics and strategy again Kev. To those families suffering the loss of loved ones no justification will be sufficient..ever – how could it. If you think that ONE of those service families would say that their loss is justification for the whole war to be stopped and make their son/daughter/husband’s death meaningless and serve no greater good then I’m afraid you dont understand the service ethos very well.

Very brave of you to make a statement like that. Keltic has expressed his opinions, and I don’t think Keltic is the kind of person to arrive at those opinions lightly. You don’t mean to criticise Keltic personally but… you suggest he lacks objectivity, a sound intellectual footing and a lack of ability to apply logic. I hope you don’t mean to criticise me, I doubt if I could take it……

Possibly poorly phrased on my part. I was trying to say that I had no specific hostility towards Keltic and was meaning my remarks as constructive criticism.

In a paragraph above you stated ‘now I think we have to start interpreting those images for a population’. Make your mind up. Do we need guidance or don’t we?

Think I’ve explained this. People dont need to be lead by the nose. They do need to have sufficient information and perspective to formulate an accurate opinion though. Without that, as you’ve said, they can only fall back on emotional reactions which are no basis for informed decision.

I know my background influences me on this point but sometimes it’s all we have.

I dont accept this. Excessive emotion is the enemy of rational judgement – always has been and always will be. If you allow yourself to be controlled by your emotions you’ll never be able to make clear and accurate judgements and will always be a puppet to those who have the ability to play on your emotions.

May not be civilised but I doubt if I would be as accepting of the situation as you.

Well, it gives me justification to keep winding him up – a few weeks ago I parked my car on his drive to make a point and left it there til he made the mistake of coming around to ask what the hell I was doing!. Most of the time he does it I get to bang on his door, tear a few strips off him and make him move the bloody car. So it can be a good decompression tool at times if I’ve had a bad day. Juvenille perhaps but I have to admit it does amuse me in a vindictive little way.

There we differ in our interpretation of events again. I know you will be saddened by the loss of coalition forces in these incidents but it is interesting that you mention the equipment losses before that of the men.

I mentioned the equipment to emphasize the point that they were new-tech and we should be able to expect better of the new kit we are being issued nothing more nothing less.

So now you admit that these troops and airmen may not have believed in the ’cause’ for which they died.

I’ve never denied that. I have generalised that the military is more interested in the people against the politicians being more interested in the oil – not the same thing.

I’d expect that a percentage of the forces dont think we are on solid ground on this one – being the aggressor isnt something we are used to. Thats largely academic though as when you wrote “just about doing the job and getting home” you hit the mark spot on. A display of gratitude from the Iraqi’s, if it happens, will be a big bonus for our people though.

I remember a PO who served aboard Invincible in Op Corporate telling me that many of them had reservations about steaming 8000 miles to fight for a bunch of sheep and it wasnt really til he had to go ashore after the war and he met the islanders that certain pieces fell into place for him. Didnt effect the way that they fought though.

No, but if they are dying for something they have no belief in, that surely cheapens the efforts of a Government which sends them there.

Why? Are you suggesting that a matelot in the engine room of a frigate has the same perspective as the Prime Minister?. Like I said that PO had no belief in the Falklands until he got a different perspective on the issue.

Anyone can capture miles of empty desert.

Not in 4 bloody days!.

It is the towns and cities that are important.

Nuts!. Its the Regime leadership and the symbols of that leadership that are important not the entire urbanised area of Iraq.

The Iraqi Government has stated that the coalition forces can do as they please in the desert.

That makes them right does it? By ceeding the desert to the Coalition they’ve given our forces room and time to consolidate and maneuver. Dont seem so smart to me!

If these squads are not a problem why in Umm Qasr have US forces been relieved by British Marines? It has been stated that it is because the Royal Marines are better trained in street fighting. It would appear they are far more of a nuisance than you’d have us believe.

You answered your own question. The RM are better trained and experienced in the role. That makes them correct choice for a politically sensitive tasking. I’ll restate though those pockets exist at sufference only as, at any point, coalition forces COULD go in and destroy them. That they choose not to is no sign of weakness or failure.

No chance Ivan. Modern US kit is designed to operate in the presence of a modern US logistics chain so, for anyone wthout that kind of logistics backup i.e everyone else they represent quite a burden despite their superior capabilities.

Warrior in UK service may be more austere than Bradley but is still a potent vehicle and has certain habitability features that the US vehicle doesnt and it comes in at a fraction of the price. It is also damned tough – one of my memories of the Boz footage was a Warrior in convoy rolling over some form of mine and being launched about half a foot off the deck. When it settled the track commander poked his head up out the hatch, turned to the camera vehicle, shrugged in confusion then disappeared back down into the turret and headed on.

Also like the below shot, of a Kuwaiti Warrior, shows:

It can be upgunned to give it all the warfighting potential of the Bradley.

I know one Recce Mech at least who rates Chally2 a lot higher than even the new marks of Abrams. This for the armour and supportability of the vehicle (he also says its a top giggle to drive – and he has a CRARV or Challenger Repair and Recovery Vehicle of his very own to play with!).

Kev,

I disagree with what you’ve said about Eric’s post, but I know him to be a person of strong views who doesnt need me standing up in his defence and I doubt he’d thank me for it if I did. I appreciate you’ve made strong points against him and that I should reply as I pursued the issue but, in this case, I’m going to leave it.

BTW why are we calling it a war when no war has been declared?

Good one. Its something I’ve been thinking about for a while – I suppose its the age old case of “looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck so its a……….”

‘This is a NEW nature of war.’ Yes it is. We are watching it on tv like it was a movie.

Which Sky, BBC, CNN, Al-Jazeera, Abu Dhabi TV and all the other media organisations have inspired NOT the military. I don’t quite know if your saying that this is a bad or good thing?.

Personally I think this is a tremendously good thing as it allows ordinary people a greater empathy with those at the front line whatever the consequence, now I think we have to start interpreting those images for a population that at the moment is listening to semi-trained anchor-people who cannot accurately interpret what they are seeing or place the images in context of the larger operation.

Take for example the resistance pockets in Basra – the military personnel on here know that its utterly inconsequential for those pockets to be left in place as the operation underway is an encirclement and holding action. We’ve no need to go in and weed all the irregulars out as their strategic disruption potential is zero. Yet the lack of complete area pacification is trumpeted from every media transmitter as some kind of tragic failiure?!.

People like Keltic, with no real comprehension of the strategy involved, see these reports and take up the banner of how much of a failiure everything is. So theres no point continuing……etc….etc….etc. I dont mean to criticise Keltic specifically but in this case he’s either not looked objectively at the media reports he’s seen or he has just seen what he expects to see in the media he has been exposed to. In neither case does he have a sound intellectual footing to arrive at an accurate picture of events. Despite this lack of logical foundation he has published an article on the internet making determinations as to the course of events. Elps language may have been undiplomatic but essentially he was as right as Keltic was.

Was the last Gulf War any nastier and more horrific than the present one? That remains to be seen. One thing that we can be sure of is this wone will take a lot longer to finish. We can only imagine what casualties will be like over the coming days, weeks or even months.

Well in answer to your first part we’ve yet to see any indiscriminate carpet-bombing by B-52’s, we’ve not seen hi-intensity SCUD strikes against neighbouring cities, we’ve not seen the targetting of dual-use infrastructure targets that led to the civillian privations after DS and we’ve not seen anywhere near the same kinds of ecological hooliganism that Saddam kicked off last time. Sooo I’m forced to the conclusion that 4 nights of intensive bombing resulting in two “accidental targets” hit (namely 5 Iraqi houses in Baghdad and 1 Syrian coach that was tragically in the wrong place at the wrong time) make this one a damnsight cleaner than the last.

Condescending of you and not like you at all. You are now suggesting that we are unable to analyse what we are being presented on tv and need to be guided. Our supposed ‘unconscious reaction’ to what we see is one of the factors that encourages us to think of ourselves as civilised. One cannot help but have an emotional reaction to what is going on.

Frustrated more than intentionally condescending but you may have a point!.

Quite the opposite from needing to be guided I’m suggesting that people need to be making their own interpretations of what they are seeing NOT just listening to the direction of the media. I appreciate what you’re saying that an emotional reaction is inescapable but it, in isolation, is no basis for for forming accurate opinions. The guy two houses up the street from me nearly always manages to park his car blocking my drive, now, my emotional reaction is to break both his legs and park his car on his head, however, this is not a civilised course of action. The same way its perfectly understandable that we all feel horrified and sickened at the images of hurt children but, in my view, that HAS to be balanced against the need to perform the action and the likely outcome of the action. Neither of which had any practical alternate solutions presented for.

Human nature, it’s people hedging their bets. Those same people will probably end up greeting the coalition forces with open arms.

I agree absolutely Kev. In my book enlightened self-interest is a universal language that all but the most fanatical extremists understand. This is the main reason, to be honest, that I think Iraq will be ok after the war. Talking to friends who’ve been out there the Arabs, in general, could give lessons on pragmatism. It will be in their interest to have a less repressive regime and a restoration of free trade. Democracy may be an interesting experiment for them and its going to take a long while to take root, with galactic ****-ups on the way, but the dinars in the pocket will keep nearly everyone pulling the same way. Cynical me…….never!

True, but contrast that with the determined and fluid resistance being encountered in almost every town the coalition forces reach.

How do you know that some of those “pockets of resistance” arent just a couple of squads of Republican Guards that are being left to stew?. How do you know what the motivation of the majority of the Iraqi Army is? I’ve heard several stories of ordinary army units being “stiffened” by regime fanatics (i.e people with something to lose by the departure of Hussein) such that if they surrender or attempt to go AWOL they get shot. If the choice is that you get shot by the Americans in 3 days or shot by the Fedayeen in a few hours you will choose the option that keeps you alive longest…every time. I’m not suggesting that every Iraqi soldier feels this antipathy towards Saddam or any particular love of the US or UK, but, I think the next few days will be an interesting acid test of the real loyalties of the general Iraqi soldiery.

Carefully planned and controlled, yes, but with only limited effectiveness. We are not yet able to assess the effectiveness of the bombing in Baghdad. I would imagine it’s pretty accurate compared to what we have seen in the past. Let’s see though whether the military and political ‘head’ has been decapitated. At the moment it doesn’t appear so.

I’d agree with that assessment as well. Apart from the initial snapshot strike on the first night though I think that the Allied strikes have been tailored to attrite conventional C4I targets as part of the decapitation plan. Its a crude analogy but if you think of the decapitation being performed NOT with a sharp axe against a guy running down the street (which runs the risk of bytanders getting hurt by this flailing axe) but by a big bloke slowly choking the life out of the subject for later, surgical, decapitation of the corpse you get nearer the picture.

Of course it is fairyland. But you must admit that it is not exactly comforting that so many have died as a result of ‘blue on blue’ incidents or accidents, is it?

No, of course its not comforting but equally its no reason to run around wailing about the inequities of war and how pointless the whole thing is! Am I angry that a US SAM took down a GR4 – yes of course I am. Am I upset that two brand new AEW Mk7 Sea Kings ended up at the bottom of the Persian Gulf with 7 good lads aboard – yes of course I am. Does it alter my views of the yanks or lessen the reasons for the war….not for a millisecond. Those lads died fighting for something that, deep down, they may not have believed in but were fighting all the same with and for their mates. The fact that it was an accident or friendly fire that claimed them cheapens their sacrifice not a bit.

We are told that everything is high tech, the war will be over in days, minimal casualties, mass surrenders. What we are now seeing is American prisoners and dead, an effective resistance which has caught coalition forces off guard, several journalists dead and missing, some allegedly due to friendly fire. There will obviously be civilian casualties as well. At the moment it seems coalition forces are endeavouring to keep them to a minimum.

You were told that the war would be over in days – who by? As to the rest, hmmm, yes you’re seeing US prisoners – about 8 from a supporting unit that got lost. Thats 8 US PoW’s out of oh what 250,000?. A 0.0032% PoW rate? I think the US would settle for that by this stage of the action. The figures are similar for the casualties incurred so far in that they are extremely small compared to whats out there. As to your assertion that there is an effective resistance?????? Kev, in case your not following the story pal, the US 3rd is 70 miles south of Baghdad after 4 days of campaigning!? Are you describing a few squad, platoon and company sized units of motivated troops an effective resistance?. Let me assure you that they exist ONLY at US and UK sufference and theyre doing very little apart from causing a nuisance and making nice pictures for the TV cameras.

I doubt that if you phrased the question better, eg, “Do you support the war to oust Saddam Hussein?” the answer would still be a considerable no vote.

56% of the population polled in favour given exactly the question you wrote above though Kev. Apparently it was in yesterdays Telegraph and on one of the news channels.

Kev

Elps opinion is as sincere and heartfelt as Keltics why should he be the only one villified and why do you assume he’s trying to silence anyone? In what you wrote you do realise you’re guilty of exactly the same prejudice that you are accusing him of?

Eric simply said this is the nature of war and I actually think he went easy with Keltic – this is a NEW nature of war. War, even a decade ago, was a whole boatload nastier and more horrific than what we’re witnessing today.

Please people start looking at your TV screens without the automatic emotional filters switched on. Analyse what you’re looking at instead of just having an unconscious reaction to it.

1. Look at the live pictures of Baghdad. Is it a smoking hole? Is water flowing, is the power on, are the bridges still standing, is traffic moving around on the streets?. The answer to all these questions is YES. For chrissakes one little girl wounded in the bombing was playing out in the street!. I cant vouch for the parenting skills of the average Iraqi but I’d assume they’d try and get her in if some kind of Dresden-level blitz was under way.

The Red Cross is moving from hospital to hospital checking to see if they have enough medical supplies and are bemoaning the possible psychological damage that the bombing might cause!!! Psychological trauma!!! As if being subject to a regime that executes dissidents after having their wives gang-raped in front of them isn’t traumatic!!!!

2. For everyone who saw the footage of the “search” for the “downed airman” in the reed beds earlier today precisely how many of those Iraqi’s present looked terrified by the effects of A-day? They all look healthy, well dressed and very determined to cash in on the bounty Saddam placed on dead or captured allied personnel to me.

3. Watch the attitude of the ordinary Iraqis stopped at Coalition VCP’s. These people are being inconvenienced in their own country by foreign troops how many of them looked disturbed by the intrusion?. I saw a Brit soldier pat one guy on the back after an inspection as a gesture of thanks and got a friendly reaction. The Iraqi in question seemed quite content with the state of affairs and he was just a normal guy going about his business.

This is after 4 days of the most intensive precision bombing ever performed in history. Ladies and gents what we are seeing is not some shambolic mess its a carefully planned and controlled campaign designed to isolate an oppressive political regime from the citizens it controls and, in the main, it is doing just that.

To have an expectation that this would happen without anyone dying is fairyland. To have the expectation that there would be no accidents or blue-on-blues is fairyland. In some ways 4 days of intensive warfare with a mere handful of non-combattant dead and scarcely a few hundred wounded is also fairyland. Compare that to the approximately 120,000 deaths per annum that happen under the Saddam regime and you will see how the coalition campaign compares, in terms of brutality, to what it is in the process of replacing.

Ben,

The average UK citizen knows whats going on for good and ill and Blairs popularity has jumped 20% on the strength of what is being reported from Iraq. I don’t quite see what basis you have for your statement?

Ink,

Yeah… ParaReg does have its own esprit de corps you might say. Then again though, given the job the have to do, recruiting from the boy scouts isnt much in their interest. I know what youre talking about though but I’d say you could find an equal mix of “personalities” in the crowd at Stamford Bridge or Highbury on a Saturday afternoon. Essentially that you can get that distasteful element in any large group although in a large group of men trained to be confident and aggressive its obviously an issue that needs close monitoring.

On balance though I think that the Army isn’t much different to either of the other services in this regard. The pep talk given by Col Tim Collins to the Royal Irish Regiment, below, is indicative from what I know of Army character (comment Snapper?):

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A BRITISH commander last night warned his troops to show respect to the enemy.

Lt Col Tim Collins told the infantrymen: “We go to liberate not to conquer. We will not fly our flags in their country.

“We are entering Iraq to free a people. The only flag which will be flown in that ancient land is their own. Show respect for them.

“There are some who are alive at this moment who will not be alive shortly. Those who do not wish to go on that journey, we will not send.

“As for the others, I expect you to rock their world. Wipe them out if that is what they choose. But if you are ferocious in battle, be magnanimous in victory.”

Lt Col Collins, who leads the battlegroup of the 1st Battalion of the Royal Irish, told his men not to confuse Muslim terrorism with Iraqi culture.

He said:”Iraq is steeped in history. It is the site of the Garden of Eden, of the Great Flood and the birthplace of Abraham. Tread lightly there. You will see things that no man could pay to see and you will have to go a long way to find a more decent, generous and upright people than the Iraqis. You will be embarrassed by their hospitality, even though they have nothing.

“Don’t treat them as refugees for they are in their own country. In years to come they will know that the light of liberation in their lives was brought by you.

“If there are casualties of war, remember, when they woke up and got dressed in the morning they did not plan to die this day. Allow them dignity in death. Bury them properly and mark their graves.”

In an emotional address which reduced many troops to tears, Lt Col Collins warned the 800 men of 16 Air Assault Brigade that not all of them would survive.

He said: “It is my foremost intention to bring every single one of you out alive.

“But there may be people among us who will not see the end of this campaign. We will put them in their sleeping bags and send them back. There will be no time for sorrow.”

The CO added: “The enemy should be in no doubt that we are his Nemesis and we are bringing about his rightful destruction.

“There are many regional commanders who have stains on their souls and they are stoking the fires of hell for Saddam. He and his forces will be destroyed by this coalition for what they have done. As they die they will know their deeds have brought them to this place. Show them no pity.”

The men listened in silence as their CO addressed them at Fort Blair Mayne desert camp, 20 miles from the Iraqi border.

He said: “It is a big step to take another human life. It is not to be done lightly. I know of men who have taken life needlessly in other conflicts. I can assure you they live with the mark of Cain upon them.

“If someone surrenders to you, remember they have that right in international law. The ones who wish to fight, well, we aim to please. If you harm the regiment or its history by over enthusiasm in killing or in cowardice, know it is your family who will suffer. — (note: family in this context means regiment)

“You will be shunned unless your conduct is of the highest for your deeds will follow you down through history. We will bring shame on neither our uniform or our nation.”

Warning they would face chemical and biological weapons, he said: “It is not a question of if, it’s a question of when. If we survive the first strike, we will survive the attack.”

His closing words were resolute: “As for ourselves, let’s bring everyone home and leave Iraq a better place for us having been there. Our business now is north.”

————————————————————-

Might sound a bit flowery and OTT to some of you. If it does I’d ask you to read it again after suspending your cynicism for a few minutes and try and empathise with the situation that the RIR lads would have been in.

There surely are some devils in the UK forces Ivan, but, whilst I’d stop short of calling them “angels” there are also a number of damn fine men.