JonesyRE: Echelon
I have to add something here “Echelon” is a SIGINT network that, allegedly, was formed by the UKUSA group incorporating some, not all, US assets and the capabilities of the major Commonwealth nations – UK, Australia, Canada and NZ. It does not stop there though. Many so-called 3rd party nations have had input and access to, at different times, this network. The published ones include Germany, Japan, South Korea and Turkey.
All these states, not to mention a great many others, all therefore have the capability to develop significant SIGINT product in their own regard. I’ve even seen seen the French capacity jokingly labelled “Frenchelon” owing to its advanced capability!.
Whether they are therefore bundled under the bogey name “Echelon” or not other nations have and, doubtless, do use their surveillance capability for reasons that have little to do with military affairs.
JonesyRE: Echelon
I have to add something here “Echelon” is a SIGINT network that, allegedly, was formed by the UKUSA group incorporating some, not all, US assets and the capabilities of the major Commonwealth nations – UK, Australia, Canada and NZ. It does not stop there though. Many so-called 3rd party nations have had input and access to, at different times, this network. The published ones include Germany, Japan, South Korea and Turkey.
All these states, not to mention a great many others, all therefore have the capability to develop significant SIGINT product in their own regard. I’ve even seen seen the French capacity jokingly labelled “Frenchelon” owing to its advanced capability!.
Whether they are therefore bundled under the bogey name “Echelon” or not other nations have and, doubtless, do use their surveillance capability for reasons that have little to do with military affairs.
JonesyRE: Echelon
I think an important aspect of this may just be that it was a French documentry Geforce. Therefore it was surely completely unbiased and had no agenda, whatsoever, in portraying the US in a bad light. 😀
This kind of intel gathering is done on a routine basis between friendly nations. Certainly a “UK-asset-located-close-to-Cheltenham”, a key node in the Echelon system, monitors CONUS for all sorts of reasons – most with full US knowledge and approval. I’ve also heard of French Echelon stations being used to very great effect (in 1982 a French SIGINT station alerted UK forces to an Argentine special forces mission that was about to attack the Gibraltar naval base).
To imply that Echelon is a tool exclusively used by the US in support of its private industry therefore is inaccurate. To say it has been, and is being, grossly misused by many of its participants though is an understatement of some magnitude.
JonesyRE: Echelon
I think an important aspect of this may just be that it was a French documentry Geforce. Therefore it was surely completely unbiased and had no agenda, whatsoever, in portraying the US in a bad light. 😀
This kind of intel gathering is done on a routine basis between friendly nations. Certainly a “UK-asset-located-close-to-Cheltenham”, a key node in the Echelon system, monitors CONUS for all sorts of reasons – most with full US knowledge and approval. I’ve also heard of French Echelon stations being used to very great effect (in 1982 a French SIGINT station alerted UK forces to an Argentine special forces mission that was about to attack the Gibraltar naval base).
To imply that Echelon is a tool exclusively used by the US in support of its private industry therefore is inaccurate. To say it has been, and is being, grossly misused by many of its participants though is an understatement of some magnitude.
JonesyRE: What’s everyones take on Star Trek: Enterprise???
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 02:25Â PM (GMT)]In my opinion Enterprise is a great idea that hasnt really been thought through properly. The fact that the ship is “early” technology isnt enough really to set this much earlier than Next Generation or the spinoff shows.
The captain, Scot Bakula, is still every bit as “enlightened” as Picard or the terribly politically-correct african-american or female captains that followed him. There’s none of the “We come in peace….phasers on kill” that the 60’s Kirk series embodied yet we are to believe that mankind evolved from the Enterprise generation to Kirks?! Doesnt fit to me really…like all the Star Trek legacy shows its good mindless entertainment though!
For a good sci-fi show, with a tremendous storyline and a plausible setting you should watch Babylon 5. Still a little predictable but at least in this future vision people are still recognisable as having evolved from today’s world i.e theyre are still corrupt politicians, druggies, “black” organisations etc, etc. There are no magical force fields or matter-energy transporters and the vessel designs (including the station itself – a wonderful rendition of a Heinlein “Universe Ship”) are all very well researched.
If you want the “definitive” good future-telling sci-fi story though read Arthur C Clarkes “3001” one of the most interesting books I’ve ever read.
JonesyRE: What’s everyones take on Star Trek: Enterprise???
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 23-07-02 AT 02:25Â PM (GMT)]In my opinion Enterprise is a great idea that hasnt really been thought through properly. The fact that the ship is “early” technology isnt enough really to set this much earlier than Next Generation or the spinoff shows.
The captain, Scot Bakula, is still every bit as “enlightened” as Picard or the terribly politically-correct african-american or female captains that followed him. There’s none of the “We come in peace….phasers on kill” that the 60’s Kirk series embodied yet we are to believe that mankind evolved from the Enterprise generation to Kirks?! Doesnt fit to me really…like all the Star Trek legacy shows its good mindless entertainment though!
For a good sci-fi show, with a tremendous storyline and a plausible setting you should watch Babylon 5. Still a little predictable but at least in this future vision people are still recognisable as having evolved from today’s world i.e theyre are still corrupt politicians, druggies, “black” organisations etc, etc. There are no magical force fields or matter-energy transporters and the vessel designs (including the station itself – a wonderful rendition of a Heinlein “Universe Ship”) are all very well researched.
If you want the “definitive” good future-telling sci-fi story though read Arthur C Clarkes “3001” one of the most interesting books I’ve ever read.
JonesyRE: She is still stuck!
Coanda,
“according to the report he ‘ran to the bridge’ so it would appear he wasnt on the bridge, and therefore not solely responsible for the safety of the boat.”
Apparently the skipper was actually on the Lynx and he ran damn near the full length of the ship when he realised what had occured. This is strange behaviour really as, if there’s one sure-fire thing that upsets a ships company its seeing the boss go by at full tilt. Naval Officers don’t run unless a) they are in a flap or b) they are being chased by something big and nasty!.
The captain will have to face some searching questions following this though. If the OOW is found to have been inexperienced or in any way unprepared for the responsibility of ship handling in the conditions that existed that night then the Captains judgement in leaving him in charge will come under intense scrutiny. There did seem to be the hint that the Captain was doing a “mea culpa” and taking responsibility for the incident over from his officer as well.
As to whether we’ll see the vessel returned to the UK for repair or not I’d doubt it. Any kind of quick-fix patching would not survive a transit half-way around the world. I’d expect to see her towed into Sydney for sufficient repairs to get her seaworthy for the return to Portsmouth. Once at Portsmouth she’ll be placed in refit/extended readiness state, I’d expect, and an announcement will be made, quietly, after a few months that she’ll pay off early because of the costs of getting her back to match fitness!.
Glenn,
As to the F100’s for the RAN I’d say not a good choice – too small. What the Aussies (and the Canadians in a few years) really could use, IMHO, is a nice big Type 45 hull with the Dutch Signal APAR active array (beats the pants off any of the SPY-1 junk!) and with a 64 cell Mk41 VLS. IMHO gives you everything you need in terms of seakeeping and range and allows you to keep commonality with your current US weapons fits. Also if we can get you and the Canadians in the project we might all get ships for a nice low-ish price!?
Regards,
Steve
JonesyRE: She is still stuck!
Coanda,
“according to the report he ‘ran to the bridge’ so it would appear he wasnt on the bridge, and therefore not solely responsible for the safety of the boat.”
Apparently the skipper was actually on the Lynx and he ran damn near the full length of the ship when he realised what had occured. This is strange behaviour really as, if there’s one sure-fire thing that upsets a ships company its seeing the boss go by at full tilt. Naval Officers don’t run unless a) they are in a flap or b) they are being chased by something big and nasty!.
The captain will have to face some searching questions following this though. If the OOW is found to have been inexperienced or in any way unprepared for the responsibility of ship handling in the conditions that existed that night then the Captains judgement in leaving him in charge will come under intense scrutiny. There did seem to be the hint that the Captain was doing a “mea culpa” and taking responsibility for the incident over from his officer as well.
As to whether we’ll see the vessel returned to the UK for repair or not I’d doubt it. Any kind of quick-fix patching would not survive a transit half-way around the world. I’d expect to see her towed into Sydney for sufficient repairs to get her seaworthy for the return to Portsmouth. Once at Portsmouth she’ll be placed in refit/extended readiness state, I’d expect, and an announcement will be made, quietly, after a few months that she’ll pay off early because of the costs of getting her back to match fitness!.
Glenn,
As to the F100’s for the RAN I’d say not a good choice – too small. What the Aussies (and the Canadians in a few years) really could use, IMHO, is a nice big Type 45 hull with the Dutch Signal APAR active array (beats the pants off any of the SPY-1 junk!) and with a 64 cell Mk41 VLS. IMHO gives you everything you need in terms of seakeeping and range and allows you to keep commonality with your current US weapons fits. Also if we can get you and the Canadians in the project we might all get ships for a nice low-ish price!?
Regards,
Steve
JonesyRE: She is still stuck!
Well, from what I’ve heard the OOW ordered a radical course change into the wind to help the ships’ Lynx to land-on in bad conditions. The story is that this junior officer didnt check his position before doing this as, if he had, he would have noticed this rock clearly marked on his chart and not needed to consult any instruments.
I’d seriously doubt that any form of active sonar was transmitting at the time when the grounding occured and any flow noise picked up passively would be routinely filtered out by the OM’s so there would be little that sonar could have done to alert the OOW to the danger anyhow. I’m guessing that this rock is totally submerged (certainly not seen anything visible in the photo’s) so the surface-plot rating probably wouldnt have seen any radar targets to cause an alert either.
All told it just looks like a terrible goof on the part of the Officer of the Watch who probably thought he was acting correctly but, in his distraction, he forgot to make the most basic checks!. This is why the Captain has taken it so philosophically, quite simply, he knows that this has just been a stupid f&ck-up and apart from the official bollocking there is little more tht can be said or done about it.
The shame of it is that prelimanary estimates put the damage somewhere near the £30-35 million mark to make good and there are the, expected, rumours that the Treasury wont cut loose 35 mil to spend on a 22 year old ship. She may therefore simply be paid off.
Just how desperate are the RAN for an AAW destroyer Glenn!? 🙂
Steve
JonesyRE: She is still stuck!
Well, from what I’ve heard the OOW ordered a radical course change into the wind to help the ships’ Lynx to land-on in bad conditions. The story is that this junior officer didnt check his position before doing this as, if he had, he would have noticed this rock clearly marked on his chart and not needed to consult any instruments.
I’d seriously doubt that any form of active sonar was transmitting at the time when the grounding occured and any flow noise picked up passively would be routinely filtered out by the OM’s so there would be little that sonar could have done to alert the OOW to the danger anyhow. I’m guessing that this rock is totally submerged (certainly not seen anything visible in the photo’s) so the surface-plot rating probably wouldnt have seen any radar targets to cause an alert either.
All told it just looks like a terrible goof on the part of the Officer of the Watch who probably thought he was acting correctly but, in his distraction, he forgot to make the most basic checks!. This is why the Captain has taken it so philosophically, quite simply, he knows that this has just been a stupid f&ck-up and apart from the official bollocking there is little more tht can be said or done about it.
The shame of it is that prelimanary estimates put the damage somewhere near the £30-35 million mark to make good and there are the, expected, rumours that the Treasury wont cut loose 35 mil to spend on a 22 year old ship. She may therefore simply be paid off.
Just how desperate are the RAN for an AAW destroyer Glenn!? 🙂
Steve
JonesyRE: Sociological question
“I think the Germans should stand up and lead Europe” interesting historical irony there Geforce.
How about Europe gets its act together and realises that no one state or nation will ever be acceptable as “leaders” to all the others and that any attempt to rule “by commitee” is doomed to failiure through the divergent interests of the parties involved. Ever hear the story of the horse that was designed by a commitee?
As to the German/UK issue I cant see it as much different, really, to the USA/UK thing or the France/UK issue or the Japan/UK etc, etc. There is an old joke in the UK which goes along the line “We’re not racist….we hate everybody”!!!. Well the same thing exists with British xenophobia, we dont single one nation out as one-size-fits-all!
As to whether an of this is real “hatred” or sincere “xenophobia” I’d say depends on the person you are speaking to. In general I’d say that the “two world wars and one world cup” themes that surface every now and again are viewed as satirical banter by 90%+ of the UK population. Brits love satire and irreverence and can find humour in the most unlikely of places as I am sure Snowman can attest to.
If you read Nick Richardson’s book following his shootdown over Bosnia he details some of his earlier training missions against Luftwaffe Fulcrums which sum up the relationship between Brits and Germans perfectly. Lt Richardson led with his mouth decrying the fact that there was “no word in German for ‘fluffy'” and that Germans were a poor-humoured lot because of it. Later, over the range after a closely fought WVR run, the Mig-29’s calmly BVR “blasted” Lt Richardson and his wingman into scrap metal and asked how ‘fluffy’ that felt! This is the kind of banter that is found between professionals who have a respect for each other. I think this scales up to national level quite accurately.
steve
JonesyRE: Sociological question
“I think the Germans should stand up and lead Europe” interesting historical irony there Geforce.
How about Europe gets its act together and realises that no one state or nation will ever be acceptable as “leaders” to all the others and that any attempt to rule “by commitee” is doomed to failiure through the divergent interests of the parties involved. Ever hear the story of the horse that was designed by a commitee?
As to the German/UK issue I cant see it as much different, really, to the USA/UK thing or the France/UK issue or the Japan/UK etc, etc. There is an old joke in the UK which goes along the line “We’re not racist….we hate everybody”!!!. Well the same thing exists with British xenophobia, we dont single one nation out as one-size-fits-all!
As to whether an of this is real “hatred” or sincere “xenophobia” I’d say depends on the person you are speaking to. In general I’d say that the “two world wars and one world cup” themes that surface every now and again are viewed as satirical banter by 90%+ of the UK population. Brits love satire and irreverence and can find humour in the most unlikely of places as I am sure Snowman can attest to.
If you read Nick Richardson’s book following his shootdown over Bosnia he details some of his earlier training missions against Luftwaffe Fulcrums which sum up the relationship between Brits and Germans perfectly. Lt Richardson led with his mouth decrying the fact that there was “no word in German for ‘fluffy'” and that Germans were a poor-humoured lot because of it. Later, over the range after a closely fought WVR run, the Mig-29’s calmly BVR “blasted” Lt Richardson and his wingman into scrap metal and asked how ‘fluffy’ that felt! This is the kind of banter that is found between professionals who have a respect for each other. I think this scales up to national level quite accurately.
steve
JonesyRE: Nope…
A pragmatic pacifist….does that mean you are quite calm, rational and peace-loving right until someone sorely p1sses you off Arthur??? 🙂
If so you start the movement and I’ll sign up!
Its no secret I served in the Dark Blue suit of the Royal Navy. I was an Artificer (engineering technician) and after HMS Raleigh joined HMS Collingwood in the weapons specialisation. I left, as soon as practically possible, pretty despondent with the whole thing after repeated cuts and government apathy started the rot in the UK MoD.
If we’re talking about family military histories both my grandfathers served, and were killed, aboard ship. One with the Merchant Navy on the Murmansk convoy routes after his ship was torpedoed by a U-Boat and the other was an engineering Petty Officer in the RN aboard an escort that was torpedoed, again by a U-boat, just off Gibraltar.
No wonder my father chose the Army for his National Service, I suppose!.
JonesyRE: Nope…
A pragmatic pacifist….does that mean you are quite calm, rational and peace-loving right until someone sorely p1sses you off Arthur??? 🙂
If so you start the movement and I’ll sign up!
Its no secret I served in the Dark Blue suit of the Royal Navy. I was an Artificer (engineering technician) and after HMS Raleigh joined HMS Collingwood in the weapons specialisation. I left, as soon as practically possible, pretty despondent with the whole thing after repeated cuts and government apathy started the rot in the UK MoD.
If we’re talking about family military histories both my grandfathers served, and were killed, aboard ship. One with the Merchant Navy on the Murmansk convoy routes after his ship was torpedoed by a U-Boat and the other was an engineering Petty Officer in the RN aboard an escort that was torpedoed, again by a U-boat, just off Gibraltar.
No wonder my father chose the Army for his National Service, I suppose!.
JonesyRE: Did I miss something?
No you didnt – it may be that certain individuals (squasher? :D) are being very decent about the whole thing and not rubbing it in…or, and this is probably more likely :-), timezones are such that theyve not hit the board yet!!!
About the game….what can you say? The sending off wasnt right but the result probably was. If we couldnt put on a more convincing display against 10 men, even in those conditions, we dont really deserve to progress. Scholes’ performance was pitiful and Keiron Dyer was, from the performance I saw, literally that….dire!.
Be interesting to see how Hargreaves develops from this and how the team looks when we can slot Steve Gerrard back into midfield. I think we have to look towards Euro ’04 with a lot of confidence from the way the teams’ played in SE Asia. We played with all the heart in the world against Argentina and with all the technical skill I’ve ever seen in an England team against Denmark and, IMO, those are the two main qualities in a succesful squad.
As an overview I dont think we had a bad tournament and we’ll take a few positive lessons away from it. Also, lets face it, losing against Brazil in the quarters’ is no real cause for hung heads. I just wish we’d made a bit more of a fight of it in the second half.
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