We have 13 frigates, 6 destroyers and 7 SSNs, no carriers and no MPAs. Yet the government proposes to spend tens of billions on three, or maybe four, SSBNs, the ultimate Cold War deterrent for a “war” which finished 20 years ago. The phrase “fur coats and no knickers” springs to mind.

I’m no great fan of the idea of keeping on single-role bomber subs, but, any way we do the national nuclear deterrent it is going to cost a fair few billions. I’ve got to ask the question, John, which of the platforms you list above from frigates, destroyers, SSN’s, carriers or MPA’s can, going forward, provide the national deterrent for a ‘war’ which could, very easily, be back with us in 20yrs time?.

The common missile module for the successor bombers has completed the design phase and is a basic 4 missile unit to be installed in multiples – two or three for UK or four for US.

Looks a damnsight better polished than any Sods Opera I ever saw!. 🙂

The South African Navy deployed a Minister class strikecraft to search in the Indian Ocean for wreckage from the SAA Helderberg plane crash in November 1997.
…through the Straits of Magellan to Valparaiso in February 1998.
In May 1990…across the Indian Ocean to Keelung in Taiwan.
In 1993…participate in the Atlasur excercise.
2 more repeated the voyage and excercise in 1999.

Granted, and a point well made, if anything its easy to see why they went for frigates come replacement time!.

I’d say the above speaks more to the quality of the men crewing those boats than the suitability of the boats themselves though and, being uncharitable, the lack of a better suited boat to send in most cases?!. Hope thats fair comment!.

I’ve crewed a 200ton ‘small ship’ on a navigation exercise that crossed the channel and then ‘did Biscay’ in both directions…in November. Of the several dozen trainees aboard that ship 2 were not seasick. I was not fortunate enough to number amongst those 2!!!. The ship physically made the transit in terms that it didnt actually sink on the way out or back, but, there is no way, had we been armed, that we could have undertaken a combat patrol following the transit in either direction.

As to the wider issue brought up about the efficacy of aircraft over ships the answer is the obvious one….an aircrafts endurance will never compete with a ships…ever. The clear solution is to leverage the benefits of both by basing the aircraft on the ship.

Distiller writes…

You could do a lot of things with smaller vessels once you drop the (manned) aviation complex requirement and its sea state ops requirements

I think the answer is the exact reverse of that. If you want to get value out of the smaller hull you optimise it precisely for the carriage of aircraft. It is entirely possible to build a SWATH or semi-SWATH/ModCAT hull in the 60-80m length bracket capable of deploying rotary air in conditions up to SS6 and survivable two states above that!. The larger end of that spectrum, still just 80m….10-20m less than ‘normal’ OCPV’s, we see things like the US FSF-1 able to offer concurrent two-spot flight ops.

At 60m you look at something like the A&R ‘Weser’ design ordered by the German Ministry of Transport at Eur50mn a throw (half the price of a Greek Super Vita). Easy to adapt that to a design, with the cost differential, adding quite a bit more installed power than 3MW, capable of embarking an aviation department of an NH90 and half a dozen S-100 type or a smaller number of larger ‘MQ-8B type’ UAV’s and replacing the davit carried boats with Finnish Jurmo’s or similar ‘interceptor’ type units for MSO work. You then have a ‘small unit’ capable of creating a bubble of controlled seaspace dozens of miles across and quite able to do so in sea conditions that would send traditional smaller monohulls scurrying for safe anchorage.

Small boats have a contribution to make certainly…but they must be designed to offer very specific capabilities to do so.

Isnt much of the foreign aid budget a thinly veiled sweetner to encourage trade from places like India and Brazil?.

“See we help your poor out, arent we nice people, now how many shiny new frigates/fighters/tanks can we put you down for again?”

That being the case I’m fine with it. I’ll go back to beating my drum about the Social Security budget if I want savings to be made anywhere. Last figures I saw were about £10bn in unclaimed direct benefits and about half as much on top from unclaimed tax credits.

£15Bn in WASTAGE annually from the Social Security budget….money that is allocated and fenced off but not used….more than the entire foreign aid budget….just from the crumbs from the Welfare table. I know where I want the savings to happen and it wouldnt involve cutting the legs out from under some poor bast@rd, out in the back of beyond, who is getting a break from his misery and is appreciative of whatever genuine good is coming from the bit of help being pushed his way.

Wan,

PdA aside (which only apparently became an option in may 2012), which other Euro CVS’ would have been or are available at the time the Indian’s need to decide?

Originally, in about 2003, it was HMS Invincible which was, even then, slated for a spell at extended readiness. History shows us she could have been in IN service at latest towards the end of ’06 and had been the recipient of a 10yr refit shortly before.

Today PdA is the ideal option as it even shares its gas turbine type with the IAC. She is, apparently, sorely in need of a refit but, again, a decent refit is not going to cost a great deal compared to the Gorshkov spend.

Italy,

but its easy to say that in retrospect.

Quite a few said it before the deal as well!

Best possible outcome from the events in Libya

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/21/benghazi-anti-militia-protest-libyan-demonstrators_n_1905682.html?

Harsh that it came at the price it did but moderate Islam taking to the fore to define the limits on what can be done in the name of the prophet is a hugely significant step forward for the future of the region.

“Who are we to question this choice?” We are the people who pay their wages and look to them for the best service and protection possible.

We are also the people who pay the wages of firemen and NHS doctors….do you often tell them how to put out fires or, perhaps, critique the odd appendectomy down the local hospital???

I’d suggest, as stated earlier, the police are aware of the pro’s and cons of being armed far better than the layman is. 82% against is pretty decisive that the threat outweighs the benefit. Tragic as this event is its noticeable for its savagery in a society that rarely produces such undiluted displays of malevolence.

That we live in that kind of society, not just that our police can be unarmed, gives me a huge sense of pride generally. Some of the price for that pride has just been paid by two young women and they could have paid no higher amount. For them you can only offer a quiet thankyou for a job seen through to the end and hope that somehow their families and friends can find a way to cope with their stunning loss and pain.