ante_climaxSo at some stage Indo-US strategic relationship should be crossing beyond lip service , I think it will be a good idea to ask for such a lease , unless we ask we will never know what is our standing in US Estb.
Its like asking them the impossible. The ties are going the right way slowly but surely. There is a good chance of India being part of the U.S missile shield (there was when the republicans were in power, not so sure about Obama).
Among other things would be asking for AIM 9x and AIM 120D in case we select a U.S fighter. Now to give us the latter would show that we have pretty decent standing.
ante_climaxI am all for Indo – U.S partnership but dear Austin the Indo – U.S relations are not at a stage where she would lease us a top of the line SSN.
Even if her government wants to give us one, the congress will block it.
Well RSM55
I heard Russia was leasing India 2 Akula Class submarines so if one is ****** why can’t we get the other.
Oh and China already has her own Nuclear Subs I don’t think she woild be needing Akula class.
ante_climaxThe US carriers and Marine amphibous forces were the big stick- the ability to deploy forces wherever needed was never matched, and that was what won the cold war
The superiority of the capitalist economic model won the cold war more than anything else. Even Gorb was in love with the American life and Limos. 🙂 American consumerism and bussiness won the cold war not its military.
ante_climaxWell we can get the other Akula class one.
ante_climaxAnd at least Bush was against illegal immigration…the heart of a lot of the crime woes in Arizona. You can bet Obama and the demos won’t try to stop it.
Nearing the end of his tenure he was a big supporter of the failed bill on the status of illegal immigrants.
ante_climaxHe will probably strongly condemn China when it takes over Taiwan at this rate.
ante_climaxI would love to see Indian, American and Japanese ships fighting side by side against their common enemy!
Nah I would like an alliance between the three and exercises in the area showing our common ‘enemy’ that if you mess with one you mess with all of us. The objective is containment not war ;).
ante_climaxSo much for shooting down ****e. We need Bush back ! anyone ?
ante_climaxFor me the main sticking point with the Brahmos is its range, to hit targets deep in enemy territory the batteries have to be moved much closer to the border. The payload is another issue, the success of a small warhead against an area target is debatable. Brahmos was designed to use tis Kinetic energy to do most of the damage in anti shipping role.
I really think if we can develop or get access to missiles like the Tomahawk we should get them asap. Use them along with the Brahmos.
ante_climaxThe GOI is happy with status quo and as long as the elites **** can be protected ,who cares about the life and property of common citizen of the country , well this time around few rich and other nationals died , Mr Chidambaram said sorry , did he say sorry when hundreds of ordinary citizen died in Train blast in Mumbai or blast in Delhi and else where ?
So according to you because of these attacks that kill many innocent and poor civilians. We must start a war that will possibly include nuclear exchange and loss of entire cities and their populace, rich and poor.
Why not try the other way ? Why not stop looking outside and beef up our security infrastructure. Why not have specialized SWAT teams in all major police stations. What about training the ordinary cop, keeping him fit, giving him new age weapons and Rubber batons instead of WW2 Era Lee Enfield Replicas and Bamboo sticks. What about surveillance cams ?
These are things which will cost much less than any war. You can train a city of cops possibly with the money spent to fly one or two sorties of a Mirage 2000.
ante_climaxAnd yes in post cold war era we are in US camp without the leaf of NAM as cover up
Post independence India tried to have good relations with US both political and defence , but US choose Pakistan over us , we went to Soviet only when we were dissapointed with West specially US.
US ofcourse did all it could to make Pakistan a frontline state , winked and wished away the Pak-China Nuclear relations when CIA had intel on it in mid 80’s and thought it was fine to brush it aside because it was a good counter weight against India.
No country in Indias post Independence history caused more harm to us than US , by either using Pakistan as a puppet state and counterweight against India , building regiems like NPT to curtail and kill Indias Nuclear Power and Strategic Nuclear program , and had general restictive regiem in place to stop transfer of High Tech equipment to India , a deliberate calculative policy.
Post cold war it imposed scanctions on India ISRO for Cryogenic deal and the post Nuclear Test imposed a blanket sanctions.
So it was US who did all that it could do to harm India , and you say we are suspicious
Like I said India had an inherent affiliation to the Soviet Union.
We borrowed many elements of the American constitution but chose to have a closed economy and soviet style economic model. It was natural that in Pakistan America found a country which suited them more.
You also have bear in mind the American rapprochement towards China especially during the 70s which was when Indo American relations became really bad. They tried to use China as a counterweight to the USSR and Pakistan against us.
Pakistan was also vital to American interests during the time because of the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan.
Like I said post cold war distrust is taking it time to wear out, but American and Indian interests are set to converge in the near future.
I do not believe America is going to support India and the other-way because of mutual love of democracy, the relationship is going to be a lot closer because both countries will be sharing similar strategic goals in the near distant future.
Sure they can do all that with impunity and stealth when they have mastered the art of corruption to perfection.
Your Political affinity is being clearly shown. If you have an allegation it should be proved. At-least the UPA wasn’t disgraced with something like the Tehelka.
Oh yes the only sanction happy country is US , and you believe its not in India’s interest to test because the US is going to recognise as responsible nuclear power , yes that shows where your loyalty lies.
Yes not to disturb the balance because hey China will make sure that Pakistan is sustained with N-Bumbs and US with generous financial assistance to fight the non-friendly taliban while the friendly ones are transferred to Kashmir.
Wait till US annoints us as the next superpower or a watchdog in this region.
My loyalty lies firmly with India. If for example an alliance with China is favourable to us in a different situation, i will be all for it.
I was just saying deal or no deal the country will be facing sanctions if it explodes a nuclear device. Now i don’t want to argue about the fairness of these sanctions but pragmatic policy means you have to weigh in the pros and cons of such a test and make a decision on that. The N deal for example is not a big factor in this decision making.
India’s aspiration of becoming a superpower so fast is not feasible. It took the United States two world wars to attain that status.
Yes and you think those reactors are cheap and that is something we can just shut it down and go on business as usual with the rest , with all those billions of dollars of sunk cost , simply because of our soverign right to test ?
Again you are speaking righteousness and I am speaking politics. In politics pragmatism is the key.
Before the N deal and IAEA waiver this was the situation
1. No reactors under monitoring
2. We had the ‘soverign’ right to test.
3. Still it would have been met with sanctions from the west.
4. No access to nuclear commerce.
After the N deal.
1. Several civilian reactors under monitoring
2. We still have the ‘soverign’ right to test. (because the deal or IAEA waiver does not say we do not have).
3. IAEA waiver, access to nuclear commerce.
4. If we test a TN or N device we can expect sanctions from the united states and may be American reactors wont be supplied anymore. But we can still do business with others most importantly Russia because the IAEA waiver is in place.
If you think rationally you will see we are in a much better situation at the moment.
China never had any problem because they were always part of NPT and could freely import reactors and were recognised nuclear power and yes did all it could to harm India via Pakistan with a wink from US.
If some scientist oppose the deal for technical ground and because of strategic reason they are branded as old timers and have old way of thinking.
The deal is opposed because it just took away our right to test and power has many source and a flimsy ground was prepared to sign the deal and some sexed up report presented to make it look sweeter and in Indias interest.
NPT is not fair. I know that. China is part of it. We are not. I know your moral outrage. That NPT needs no commitment from de-facto nuclear powers. But its a reality and it is not a fair world. We negotiated to get the next best thing we could and we really got a good deal. We practically went through the NPT backdoor and got this deal. No wonder many liberals in the west are pissed.
No I brand them as old timers because they never respond to the points made by people who support the deal and stick to their guns and repeat them. The Hindu for example wrote a series of Arguments and Counter Arguments from eminent scientists with regards to the deal. Some of them supported and others did not, but the supporters answered almost all the questions the doubters posed. The newspaper is hardly pro American with N.Ram a hardline commie as its editor.
Well you need to know that the Uranium crises was one of the main reason given to import this HWR , so that it can bridge the gap till they get a self sustainable 3 stage nuclear power going
The real main reason for the deal is that we need the additional power much earlier than what can be achieved by our crisis stricken 3 stage nuclear program which has to cater to both our civilian and strategic needs without much foreign inputs.
Its a combination of Mismanagement and half lies given to the nation to make the Nuclear deal look attractive.
Mismanagement and half lies?. In a worst case scenario that may be true. But this is the country of Kautilya who said that the end justifies the means.
Ok so lets suck their thumb and they will annoint us the regional power
No let us wait and wait for our chance. The changing demographics of world politics will have its share of surprises. We need good cool headed strategists and we will get there, perhaps in our lifetimes if not of our children.
Yes so let us get killed by the terrorist in hundreds and choose not to act , because the Taleban with their unconventional warfare is now we should worry about.
India will only get respect if it chooses to act in its own interest and keep its people interest about the rest , much like US does for itself.
Acting as a stooge to US and letting our people down will take us no where
You really don’t understand war. War is not won by heart but by strategy and brains. Some equations can never be overwhelmed. World history is full of countries going to war with popular support and ending up as puppet states of their former enemies.
Once war starts and things get hard and people become affected, the morale won’t be the same.
We cannot do what the U.S or U.K does because.
1. We are not protected by the English channel or the Atlantic Ocean.
2. We don’t simply have the military capability for a sustained long war.
3. Our enemies are much better armed (compared to the countries america fought their war on terror against) and have Nuclear weapons. Even America will think a few times before going to war against a nuclear power.
4. It is much easier to target our cities and manufacturing centers because our enemies are right next door.
Now the second argument may relate to Israel and Arab situation so i will give you counter arguments for that as well.
1. Israel was fighting an existential fight and in such cases the morale of the population will be strong no matter what.
2. Israel do not have the diverse demographics India has and has national unity becuase its basically a Jewish state.
3. Israel do not have nuclear capable enemies (yet)
4. During the Israeli victories, the Israeli Armed forces had superior training and morale compared to their Arab rivals. In our case our enemies are well trained and well equipped.
America fights her own war for her own interest , by bank rolling the army.
We should fight our war for our own interest and not keep US interest first and foremost over any thing else.
Who is disputing the fact that America is fighting for her interest yes she is.
I am saying the current strategy of paying the Pakistanis to fight their war for them is paying less and less dividents and once Pakistan fails to Talibani control they will have no option to fight or surrender to the Islamists an option that will severly undermine her stature as a superpower.
It is better in India’s interest to wait and see the situation unfolding.
All in all it is not in India’s interest to wage a war with Pakistan at-least for a decade or two if status quo is kept.
ante_climaxWell the opposition is more on technical grounds than any thing else , put up sexed up report and then showing the Nuclear deal in good light is something they opposed to.
Claiming we suceeded in TN test when evidence claimed to the contrary from all sources Indian and abroad is something they opposed to.
You say there is distrust on America in India , I ask you who was the original author of NPT regiem , when did it come into effect and against whome it was targetted.
How many sanctions did US put on India , compared to any other country in the world ?
Just because they oppose the treaty on technical grounds and they speak up facts we brand them people with vested interest and people opposing to good Indo-US relations ?
We were firmly in the soviet camp despite the NAM bull****, so the attitude of Americans towards us was understandable. Now thats a thing of the past but the deep rooted distrust in both camps will take time to wither away, I am optimistic that it will happen one day and it was Clinton who initiated it but Bush and Singh will go down in history for adding a new dimension to Indo American relationship.
Well they won the Vote of Confidence in Parliment with the infamous cash for vote deal
Any one who followed the Indo-US nuclear deal and how the Mr Singh Govt went ahead with will realise that they just went full steam ahead , Political and National consensus on it exisited or not they didnt care.
They went ahead and signed it to please their US masters , so that US can make us the new great power.
:rolleyes:
Cash for Vote deal. It has been exposed as a farce by media and parliamentary committees and action was taken against the BJP members not against congress. The BJP was outsmarted by congress and they even got the Speaker who belonged to the CPI(M) to morally allign with them. Great political brinksmanship.
That is correct the NDA govt is equally responsible , but the difference is they didnt institutionalised the agreement with the US , with this agreement we have effectively given up our right to test , because the consequences are now far far higher.
Actually we would have suffered similar consequences from the Pompous international community and the west if we tested, deal or no deal. And i believe it is in India’s interest as to not test a nuclear device unless the balance in the region is altered. It is up to the government to decide. The deal gives us unofficial recognition as a responsible nuclear power.
It is no ordinary treaty between two nations , we have changed our decades old policy inspite of opposition even in scientific and political community and no broad consensus in the country , it was a deal done in hurry to please the US and a sell out as far as the strategic aspect of nuclear program goes.
What good has the decades old policy to us ? Really what good did the decades old closed economy gave us ? China opened her markets in the 1980s and we in the 1990s one of the main reasons why she is so far ahead of us now. Do you want to hold down to archaic principles and keep a closed nuclear program where by missing the chance to give our power hungry industries a much needed boost ? And these old school politicians and scientists with old way of thinking (many of them still believe in communism for example) should not decide what is best for us. The deal was supported by scientists like Mr Kakodar and Mr. Kalam, who unlike others did not see any implications on our strategic program. In fact many in the west believe we got the deal our way, mostly.
And for the Nth time the maximum we will lose with an American seisure of the deal is power from their reactors and money. The IAEA waiver means we can do bussiness with other countries still. The IAEA waiver for nuclear commerce is the big carrot in the nuclear deal and not the shiny nuclear co operation with America, which we can do without.
China was part of original NPT regiem we were not , there are multiple ways to generate power Nuclear is one aspect .
A rather lame argument, one which will not hold water because China has access to nuclear commerce and its helping her and moreover China can do as he wishes with other power projects like Dams. A project like the recent dam across the Yangtsee (the chinese did) will not go as fast here, because we are a democracy and people will cite environmental destruction, rehabilitation etc, etc. and drag the project. Nuclear power seems ideal in all circumstances for a country like India.
Look my point is if there is $$$ to be made they will ofcourse sell , even US will sell us if there is good profit to be made , what I am trying to say is Indo-US Nuclear deal shortcircutted our own 3 stage nuclear program , in the guise of fuel shortage.
That is the program we have nurtured for many decades and now Mr Singh in one stroke just sabotaged it in favour of Imported Reactors.
The 2nd consequence is it affected our strategic nuclear capability.
In a master stroke US managed to achieve both the objective with this deal.
The NPT regiem authored by US was put into place to achieve the same objective many decades back
In guise of fuel shortage :rolleyes:. Get a grip of yourself fuel shortage has nothing to do with this deal, it is one of the main reasons why our 3 stage program will not be able to adequately power our industries in the near and near distant future. Hence the nuclear deal. I am sure if they were in power NDA would have considered this the best thing since sliced bread. I can understand the communist opposition to the deal but NDA are pure hypocrites let us see how they fare if they win the current elections.
Look at the report Fuel Crises there is no shortage of Uranium this is artifically created to sell the Nuclear Deal.
What we achieve to get compared to what we gave in return was a big sell out.
:rolleyes:
It says mismanagement, something we Indians are familiar with. No need to build it up into a conspiracy theory. We have mismanagement in more vital cases like rural education and healthcare. It is not as fancy as a nuclear deal hence no one brings conspiracy theories about it.
Look buddy there is no feelings here to understand , its a war here and people of our country is dying , Pakistan is achieving its objective by killing us every day with its death by thousands cut strategy and we ponder if defending our interest is the right thing to do.
Its like telling the American after 9/11 , look we understand your feelings but Afganistan is on its way to self destruction and its not worth it.
America will not fight our war , they are fighting for their own interest and once it is done they will quit , we have to fight for our own interest.
World War I Era nationalism will get us no where. India is not the United States which is the only super power in the world.
India has two hostile borders and these nations are allied to each other, add to that the mix of unconventional warfare by the Taleban and its a real mess. A big mess we must not set foot in till all other options are exhausted. Even during the 1971 war Sam Manekshaw waited till winter before launching the campaign against Pakistan because he feared the strategic implicaitons of a Chinese involvement.
America needn’t fight our war, but her war on terror is going to be fought in Pakistan in the near future.
The CTBT was a non starter , the NDA neither said yes or no , the CTBT was going to die any ways after Clinton .
The UPA effectively signed the NPT.
No the UPA neither signed the NPT nor the CTBT. The UPA rather did a plan whereby we now have the best of both worlds. If it was catastrophical to our interests as many of you claim why is the liberal western media to this day saying that India practically got her way with the deal 😀
ante_climaxYes a serving government personal who has to bow to the will of the Govt of the Day , I dont blame him or RC for it , he is just doing the task alloted by his master.
The GOI of Mr Singh sold our interest , for the huge $$$$ they would make.
RC and Kakodar should share the blame of keeping our nation in dark on the failed Thermonuclear test
Actually I also believe many of the experts who are against it (many of whom are former scientists and heads of AEC) also have their vested interests and for some of them the distrust on America is just deep.
The outgoing UPA government has not had to face many allegations with regards to corruption and the Singh $$$$ argument is not valid.
Actually the TN test was during the time of the NDA government and they share the responsibility of keeping the nation in the dark.
They should have done that before signing the deal , its like Hathi Chala Gaya Pooch Reh Gaya.
Makes no difference, as it is a safeguard against an American domestic legislation and not against provisions of the 123 agreement. And under our constitution parliamentary ratification of treaties is not necessary.
From recent news report US was guranteed $150 billion of assured business on this deal.
Certainly all can do business as its all $$$$ to be gained from it for them at the cost of our own 3 stage Nuclear program , spin doctors working overnight to undermine our 3 stage Nuclear program
The hard reality is that the three stage nuclear programme is still some way from completion and our industrial sector needs the power way before its completion. China has a similar deal, we cannot afford to fall that far behind our Asian rival. I don’t subscribe to the argument that our domestic programme will cease to exist because of this.
Who care what Russia does or not or gains from it or not , its our intesest at stake.
You did not get me correctly. I was saying that if there is an issue with America, she may stop supplies to her reactors, but since we have the IAEA waiver and similar agreements with Russia, she will be just glad to replace America and supply more reactors. I do not believe Putins Russia will buckle under American pressure. Like Yetsins did on many issues in the past.
All figures were manipulated to favour the deal , read the latest CAG report on uranium availability and how things were sexed up to show us we were in deep ****
I really did not get you in this because, as per this deal only civilian reactors are under survielence and the fuel for the foriegn reactors are supplied by the respective countries. I don’t know how this harms the domestic programme which will be ultimately based on our Thorium deposits. I also think a change of government in Australia will see us buying Uranium from them.
Not many except for Netas who has SPG , NSG running behind them and given Z++ for their safetly while ordinary Indians die of terrorist strike every years in hundreds and jawans almost daily in kashmir.
Who wants a war when they are killing us with thousands cut , works well for them , works well for our Netas and Burecaurats
While I understand your feelings, It is still better than an all out war against a state which is on the path of self-destruction.
If Taliban takes over in Pakistan it is possible that the Americans will probably finish them off and establish a puppet government. The last thing we should do now is to wage a war with them uniting the Pakistani military Taliban and Populace.
Oh Yes the Congress Govt of Mr Singh
Actually the last NDA government was closer to signing CTBT under American pressure than the current UPA government. I don’t see any governments signing up for that.
ante_climaxDon’t forget the Australians!
Rudd is a Sinophile, Speaks the language and sucks up to them. Many of my Aussie friends had enough of him already.
ante_climax1. I will also point to experts like Anil Kakodar who favored the deal.
2. Shri. Advani on his part has stated that if NDA comes to power they will invoke domestic legislation on issues like used fuel, safe-guards against sanctions etc.
3. While the deal is signed with the U.S. It is not as important as the IAEA waiver we got. This means we can conduct nuclear bussiness with Russians and French and it was they who signed agreements first.
4. This is not the Russia of Yetsin and Putin will not buckle under American pressure at IAEA if they lobby against us there and cut of their supplies. The Russians may view this as an opportunity to regain lost influence then.
5. The deal is an interim measure till our domestic programme takes shape. The maximum effective dependence will be up to 30-40 years.
6. Buckling under American pressure on various issues has very little to do with the current Nuclear deal. Many India share the view that a war against Pakistan is not ideal at this stage, because the economic penalty will be severe. Many in this country would rather wait several decades before any real war.
7. The Congress government has not made any commitment to anybody with regards to signing CTBT or such agreements, in fact the questions regarding them were answered clearly with a no.
8. American alliance and room for maneuvering is a hot topic. It depends whether India considers the loss of some international maneuverability in foreign policy worth the alliance it is building with the United States, so far the major parties think it is worth it.
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