TMorHistory : the Rafale news
About the Rafale news threads… Old story…
In fact, Kovy had given me the idea :
http://www.network54.com/Forum/242894/thread/1110061755/1122053933/Rafale+newsletter
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=50735
And so, I started to think that a single thread to deal with this fighter would be a good idea, and I started the very first “Rafale news” thread of keypublishing (though I had the name “Rafale newsletter” in mind, like Kovy did)… My goal was to deal with wrong ideas, bias, some lies, and, if possible, provide some translated French sources that people who can’t read french would ignore. An idea I further developped with the Rafale International Forum, which, hopefully, provide some insights in the Rafale “culture” :
http://rafale.freeforums.org/
(I know, it is not regularly enough updated)
Rafale news 3/4/2007
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68250
Rafale news part II : we go on 7/17/2007
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=72432
😀 Rafale news III: the return of the revenge 4/21/2008
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=80325
He is back! He is angry! Rafale News Four! 11/13/2008
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=85983
Rafale news V : 12/3/2008
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86497
Rafale news VI 4/15/2009
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89966
Rafale news VII 6/22/2009
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91892
Rafale News VIII – more about everybody’s favourite French fighter 11/12/2009
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95672
Rafale news IX 12/3/2009
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=96119
Rafale news X 9/15/2010
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=103455
TR1’s Rafale thread, part 11 6/13/2011
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=109702
And today, we can read some very interesting “Rafale news” threads, such as the one on MP.net :
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?137433-Rafale-News
Hello to those friends who are doing a great work on MP.net
Since Kovy is the guru :D, no surprise he created the Rafale news blog !
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/
Other interesting threads where some valuable data have been posted…
36 Rafale for Brazil 🙁
(can’t find a link)
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=96345
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=98078
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=102379
TMorI really don’t understand the A&C comment about replacing the Mica IR because of the arrival of Meteor…
I mean that the Mica IR is nearly a pillar of the Rafale concept. It has the range of the OSF-TV, just the range required for a passive and totally silent interception on an identified (thanks to OSF) target, it is a sensor too… I can’t see how another missile would integrate better, unless it’s really a descendant of this concept, some kind of Mica IR mkII.
I’m afraid that integrating something else would be a sacrifice.
TMorYou may be right
No, I really don’t know. The Mica IR seeker is quite unconventional, it’s not easy to guess… I don’t even understand the pictures available.:D;)
TMorNo the mica has +/- 60° gimbal, check the sagem website that makes the seeker.
Nic
Because the FPA is mounted on a mechanical system (with +/- 60° gimbals). What’s the FoV of this FPA ? 😀
TMorso, I was wondering, what about encountering between Rafale and Mirage 2000 ?
AFAIK, there is a generation gap…
TMor@ Bloodshot : Sorry, this will be a quick answer, I’ve no more time.
I find that a little hard to believe. Do you have a source to confirm that ?
http://ftp.rta.nato.int/public//PubFulltext/AGARD/CP/AGARD-CP-593///27chap22.pdf
In fact, they are not saying that the Rafale had nose authority at 15kts, but that even though the lower speed limit is at 100kts, pilots in demonstration commonly flew at 80kts, and that against a Mirage 2000, the Rafale once decelerated at 15kts (without loss of control).
🙂
TMorThe way it’s worded sounds more like the British weren’t able to use Typhoon’s excess power advantage to their benefit.
Edit:
The bad wording (if it means what you insist) could also be owed to an inadequate translation.
The very EXACT translation is :
“Power is nothing without control”. In fact, French pilots used the Pirelli‘s slogan (yes, I mean the tyre maker).
The Pirelli’s slogan emphasizes that whatever the power of the engine, if the tyres aren’t good enough, the car won’t be good enough.
Paraphrase :
Whatever the thrust of the engine, if the aerodynamic formula can’t keep lift and control OK, then the fighter won’t be good enough.
I really don’t think that French pilot suggested that British pilots weren’t up to the task, since they just claimed that everybody was of equal skill.
😉
i would also like to say that for the good of the forum i think we should forget the grievous wrongs that have been done to the Rafale camp in the 90s when everyone thought that Typhoon was the best aircraft ever and Rafale was a bomber….
can we forget about that?
(TMor in the role of the inquisitor) Let this one flee…
:dev2:
TMor“power is nothing without mastery”
In this expression, the mastery didn’t refer to the pilot training, but to the fact that even with less power, Rafale aerodynamics are enough.
TMorTmor,
I don’t believe and I’m sure you don’t either that a Typhoon with a pilot of equal skill at the controls is going to lose more often than an F-16 does against a Rafale.
What should I know ?
Before this kind of data, we were in a world of marketing. Typhoon was to be the best, dot.
Now we have pilot comments, I give them more value, and I try to keep any faith out of consideration here.
It doesn’t strike me much if F-16 can hold its own better than Typhoon against a Rafale, if, meanwhile, we learn that Typhoon have a slight weakness against the F-16 at (very ?) low speed. I know this information isn’t verified, but as I tried to say before, there is no shame to have in this, it all depends on whether or not Typhoon pilots will learn some tricks to avoid embarrassing situations against the F-16 (Rafale has some for the F-18, for the Harrier for sure, etc).
But to believe that the outcome at Solenzara is solely down to the superior performance of the Rafale infers just that.
Yes… Then ? These aren’t my words. These are pilots words, so the inference is from them (as quoted by Air & Cosmos).
The article clearly stated that all pilots were of equal skills, and RAF pilots defined the scenario.
I know some consider it as “counter-intuitive” and all. I don’t. Rafale has never been designed as a shy low-level small fighter bomber and initial studies were well about a true dogfighter. It’s not my fault if, when Eurofighter claimed for years( with a bunch of self-proclaimed or even fictive unnamed specialists) that it was the best dogfighter at all regime/all altitudes, just everybody started to look at Rafale like a lesser capable machine.
The Typhoon pilots who participated at Solenzara were inexperienced pilots converting to type AFAIK.
This is not what I can read in the article. What’s your source ?
The RAF could have instead sent the cream of the crop of highly experienced pilots but that would have rendered the entire exercise pointless.
Source first, please. I totally understand your argument, I know when and how to use it, but we also know that “plausible” is not truth.
Yes, but there is obviously a world of difference between prolonging the fight long enough to reach that point against a Mirage 2000 and doing the same against a Typhoon though.
A “world of difference” ? Someone’s is very confident. 😉
However, my point was just to tell you that Rafale has nose authority even when its speed nears 0 kts (I can’t remember about the C01, maybe 10kts ?).
Well the Rafale will certainly have an advantage in nose authority once the Typhoon’s ALSR kicks in ! 😮
Why not before ?
As for nose authority above that speed I would not be so sure of that, the Typhoon has demonstrated excellent nose authority at low speed and high AoA. This has been particularly noticeable during the more recent displays flown by the AMI and AdA.
Some examples.
Rafale supporters have used videos for years and are duly answered “this doesn’t demonstrate anything”.:D
TMorRAF pilots had 8 chances to reverse the outcome in Corsica after losing the first one. They did only once.
Typhoon pilots may know how to kill a Rafale in a dogfight, do not expect Rafale pilots to obey like a puppy ! 😀
http://rafale.freeforums.org/pilot-claims-about-rafale-vs-typhoon-after-actual-encounters-t137.html
See the third part of my message.
but it comes in at 50 kts which is a very low speed for either aircraft and it is most likely to be triggered in a vertical fight where the Typhoon has the advantage in power.
50kts wasn’t low enough to prevent Rafale C01 from scoring a kill against a Mirage 2000.
You said “where the Typhoon has the advantage in power.”, don’t omit that Rafale HAVE the edge in nose authority (no ALSR, no need for a such). Re-gaining energy in a vertical fight in a strait line VS using the remaining nose authority… Who knows ?
TMorI was about to post it on my forum…
That’s what I call honest and balanced.
+1
This was a dogfight, confirming what the Rafale pilot said at Le Bourget 2009 : at the time, there had been no BVR between the two types.
This explains why German said the results were “extremely gratifying” (due to extra thrust).
This would also explain why RAF pilots found the Rafale “underpowered” above 20,000 ft…
So, under 19,000 ft, Rafale wins, above 20,000 ft, Typhoon wins. It tells a lot about the different optimizations. 😀
TMorYes. Sometimes, lessons are learnt the hard way.:D
TMorIs there something new about the DA5’s LERX ?
I found this on a blog :
http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.com/p/eurofighter-typhoon.html
The improvements in the already formidable agility of the Typhoon has been surprising: the LERX delays the loss of lateral stability during maneuvers at high angle of attack, and the tests showed that, in a standard AA weapons configuration with 4 BVRAAM missiles and two SRAAM, the DA5 with LERX gains a good 10% more turning rate than normal Typhoons. It is unclear if this modification can be financed and fitted at least to the Tranche 3A Typhoons.
This story is still very mysterious to me… How did it start ? Why ? What was discovered ? Will the fleet benefit from it ?
:confused:
TMorThis is a deal for Dassault to lose now, if they lose this one, probably some heads will roll in Dassault management.
And I will start to prefer the Typhoon. 😮
😀
TMorplease indulge me if this seems like a stupid question but why is the eurofighter advertised as a agile fighter if every body and her mum can beat it in a WVR fight. and if it struggles in the low speed areas why doesnt it just keep things quick where its supposed to be good?
Each time, we talk about GUN fights.
In those engagements, the speed may simply be too low, maybe Typhoon has a small problem in those situations.
Up to now, we know that F-16 fared better against Rafale than Typhoon did (before Red Flag : Rafale vs F-16 : 6 on 2 ; Corsica : Rafale vs Typhoon : 8 on 1), each time in pure gun dogfights.
Because I have also a first hand testimony by a Mirage 2000-5 pilot who met the Typhoon in a “heater” dogfight, I also know that Typhoon is far from being bad though.
I think that Typhoon pilots are learning that there are some stuffs which they should avoid sometimes : for example, slowing down too much in a gun fight against a F-16.
Rafale even lost to Harrier, so, everybody has special rules to take into account.:D
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