TMorSometimes (i mean rarely), in the world of Rafale, things happen and look like good news…
DGA, Sagem Validate Latest AASM in “Ambitious” Live Drop
France’s latest standoff precision-guided munition, the infrared-guided version of the AASM weapon from Sagem Défense Sécurité, completed technical validation testing with an ambitious test drop conducted on Feb. 5, the company says today.The Feb. 5 event involved a single AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire) weapon, fitted with an infrared terminal homing target seeker, dropped by a Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000N operated by the French air force flight test center.
The test, at the French defense procurement agency (DGA)’s Biscarosse test center on the Atlantic coast south of Bordeaux, was “particularly ambitious,” says Sagem, which is part of the Safran Group.
The infrared-guided weapon had to hit a target located in a mock industrial zone. The target’s GPS coordinates – transmitted to the AASM before the test – were
purposely shifted several hundred meters from the actual position.The AASM’s infrared imager used its image processing algorithms to identify the target several seconds before impact. It then corrected its trajectory at the last
moment in order to hit the target with great accuracy, says Sagem.“This demonstrates the capability of the infrared version of the AASM to carry out extremely precise strikes on targets whose GPS coordinates are not accurately known,” the company says.
A modular weapon, the AASM consists of a guidance kit and a range enhancement kit that can be adapted to standard bomb bodies.
As such, it can carry out precision strikes with a range of more than 50 km.
The now-tested new version integrates a terminal-guidance infrared imager that rounds out the inertial and GPS guidance of the basic version, says Sagem.
The IIR AASM is planned for integration on Rafale for standard F3, which deliveries will start in ~ mid-2008.
TMorAnd while their famous victory was at low level, their victim wasn’t heavy.
We were talking about Typhoon… Happy to see that all you’ve got to tell us is that a Jag got a irrelevant kill against a Rafale (both fighter off-topic).:rolleyes:
TMorI don’t know of any Typhoon being shot down by a superannuated and sluggish old Jaguar, flown by an inexperienced first tourist….. :dev2:
They should try to fight heavily loaded and much lower for it to happen. :dev2:
TMorJust forum rumors… No details. I’ll let you guess. 😀
TMorYes, Rafale’s total programme cost is distorted by the need to develop a Naval variant which will be built in tiny numbers, but that’s a disadvantage inherent in the programme.
You called it “a disadvantage” ! 😀
TMorOld shape : the question would be : how much more would have it cost to UK to develop a naval variant ?
You know that the one you’re talking about never flew.
Jack : i have yet to learn more, but at least, if you consider the €35Bn figure, you’re sure that the whole Rafale programme is here.
With the £19Bn figure for Typhoon, it’s not the case.
TMorFine, but in that case to derive unit R&D cost you must divide that R&D sum by total purchases, not UK purchases.
Exactly. 😉
This is why it’s (almost?) impossible to know…
TMorI see what you mean JWCook,
We should say that the total programme cost of UK Typhoon is ~£16.2Bn, and Jack should compare it to ~€30Bn for Rafale.
Jack : i still don’t agree.
All the four nations pay for the same aircraft (same basis). For example, the airframe studies funds have been shared in four parts.
Therefore, there are shares for the airframe R&D that aren’t included in the UK programme cost.
Uk didn’t develop the Typhoon alone, and though only UK paid for specific requirements, there are a lot of things that are shared with other partners, and are simply not in the Uk cost.
If you don’t agree with this principle, i’m afraid you’ll have to explain to me the goal of cooperation…
EDIT : Jack, my point isn’t to prove you that UK did actually paid for the other nations. I’m talking about programme cost for their “mother country”. France didn’t pay the 2Bn share from Dassault/Thalès/etc. UK didn’t pay for the FULL Typhoon R&D…
Then, if we want to know how much each fighter really costs, i agree that we have to include the €2Bn industrial share in Rafale cost (thus €30Bn without VAT, since the rates are different). And thus, it wouldn’t be fair to exclude the other 4 nations from the R&D of Typhoon, since they also contributed.
TMorThank you a lot, Scorpion. 😉
TMorHi Jack,
You, again, quote the figure £42.42m for T2 Typhoon as a unit production cost.
But my links above provide us with 2 figures (unit production cost):
2003 : £56.8 million
2006 : £66.7m (which makes 56.76 = 56.8 without the 17.5% VAT = €75m)
(NAO publish £68.7m in 2007)
The only possibility i found to agree on £42m is by considering the T2 contract evaluated at €13Bn for 236 fighters.
This makes €55m per aircraft, which, makes £40.85m. (no VAT here i guess, as it covers all the nations).
With similar approach (though we know the prices aren’t calculated in a similar manner) i could pick the €3.114Bn figure for France (59 F3), and it does include VAT (19.6%)… This makes €44 million per Rafale. This compares well with the F2 (€45.6m). Of course, it’s very inaccurate, since they weren’t all the same Rafale. Every figures in Parlement and l’Assemblée Nationale are calculated with VAT, and VAT aren’t part of the costs (it goes directly from one minister to an other).
Then…
I tried to explain you last time :
€35.5Bn is the total programme cost for Rafale (for France), and it includes :
– 100% of the R&D
– production of 294 Rafale
What would be the TOTAL programme cost of Typhoon (for UK) ? :
– 100% of the R&D (with the share of other partners?)
– production of 232 Typhoon.
Of course, it’s not fair to include the other nations’ share in R&D in the costs for UK.
But in France, the industrials just accepted to pay 2Bn (actually 25% of R&D) to accelerate and try to sell the Rafale as early as 1998 (and failed). France do not pay for this. Can you show me an evidence that the industrials are paying something for Typhoon ?
This is why I keep considering the €28Bn figure (33.5 with VAT) for Rafale, as well as i would consider the estimated £19 or £20Bn for UK Typhoon with VAT.
Note that Edelstenne prefers using the €26Bn which is the cost calculated as if every of our 294 Rafale were for the AdA (no Marine variant). I do not follow him here, though some people could say that UK will buy the F-35…
But still, the UK programme is a difficult case, since we have a huge hurdle :
http://www.nao.org.uk/publications/nao_reports/07-08/070898ii.pdf
The estimated current cost of Typhoon was classified in MPR05 and remains so in MPR07, in order to protect the UK’s ability to negotiate for any subsequent purchase of the aircraft.
Current Forecast Cost = *****
Thus, we can only rely on rough estimates when it comes to UK Typhoon.
This is why I took the German Typhoon figures…
€21.3Bn (21,300/1.19/180 = €99.4m-unit programme cost-)
5.87Bn for R&D
15.4Bn for production (15,400/1.19/180 = €71.9m -unit production cost-)
I just did the same for Rafale (though this implies inconsistencies) :
€28Bn already without VAT (€95.2Bn -unit programme cost-)
and since France pays 7.2Bn, this leaves 20.8Bn for production, so €70.7m (unit production cost).
This way, German Typhoon and Rafale are quite close. But i admit that it leaves a lot of inconsistencies.
Then the Assemblée Nationale gives :
-52.8m for a Rafale C
-56.6 for a B
-60.8 for a M
This figures are given with VAT, and i guess they are fly away cost, as in 1999 we could find very similar figures…
So : Rafale C = €44.14millions
Rafale B = 47.3
Rafale M = 50.8.
Shall i remember ?
The quote production doesn’t only include the production of 294 Rafale…
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1214317&postcount=561
If i use, for example, the 1999 figure, we had :
27,309 millions of Francs = €4,153 million for 95 Rafale C (€44m each). As it only includes the cost of each fighter, i think it’s the “fly away” cost.
But i can’t find similar data on Typhoon. 🙁
I would have preferred to keep the comparison for myself, so sorry for this post.
But i’m still interested in seeing what we can find. I think it’s important for every one to know what we’re paying exactly…
TMor’s detective work DOES NOT prove that Rafale is more expensive than Typhoon
No, since my goal is to know the truth (as much as possible).
and it does make costs of ownership an even more significant factor.
Yes, even more if both are evaluated on similar flight profiles and load-outs. Flying high is a lot less expensive than flying very low with a heavy load out (and think about naval operations).
It would be interesting to see what both cost per flight hour. But again, we would lack the details to understand it correctly.
TMorWell as the sources say the ~24 bln figures include development and procurement of weapons such as IRIS-T or Meteor. It includes VAT which is now 19% here in Germany (16% before 2007). The multinational nature adds some costs as well.
Actually, i wonder if the 21.3Bn figure from Defense Aerospace is the cost without the weapons (R&D+procurement)…
After removing the VAT, it would make the german Typhoon very close in cost to our Rafale, both in unit program cost and in unit production cost.
According to this :
El Economista
Según los datos aportados por Defensa, el coste del programa Eurofighter es de 10.795,4 millones de euros, de los que 1.598,7 millones corresponden a la fase de Definición y Desarrollo, y los restantes 9.196,7 millones a la producción.
€1,598.7 m for R&D
€9,196.1 m for production
————————-
€10.8Bn total.
But i don’t know if it includes weapons, and it’s probably with VAT (16% ?) as 10.8Bn convert into 9.3Bn, nearly the figure given by Defense Aerospace (for 2005).
Does someone has figures from Italy, or details about the spanish figures ?
Thx.
TMorAs they say ….it aint over until the fat lady sings;)
God bless Wikipedia. 😀
I couldn’t understand without it. 😀 😉
Of course, it’s the usual Wait’n’see… oh, what’s this ?
France is considering making military technology transfers to Brazil,
Thank you Adelphi 
TMorIsn’t production running until 2023?
2021, last delivery.
I believe it, when it is confirmed. Until now we had so much “rumors” about Rafale being ordered by this or that country, but all these reports were press ducks.
I agree with you, though this time at least, Dassault has entered officially the «exclusive negotiation». Serge Dassault has publicly shown really confident in this deal.
But Rafale is a looser, even in our eyes, especially since Morocco… 😀
TMorIts electronically scanned radar, Europe’s first, processes a billion operations a second.
😀
That was true 10 years ago…:rolleyes:
Future prospects are dim–which can’t please French taxpayers, who have already shelled out $40 billion-plus in development and production costs.
$40Bn is the estimate of total programme cost when it will be finished in 2021.
“It was so rude and crude, we had to cover our eyes,” says a retired U.S. general. The French still believe the Rafale bested Boeing in the air. They were livid.
:rolleyes:
The French weren’t alone, since actually, the result weren’t published by Dassault at first, but by local newspapers.
It seems that the conspirationists theory is really useful when you need to discredit someone… It can even negate history.
You may like or not, but this article is another evidence that this story isn’t all about the French’s beliefs.
Interestingly, Cho was released just after the deal, and Dassault didn’t failed on a bribery ground. Unproven case.
The Rafale’s brightest hope: Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi
:rolleyes:
Of course, this article has been written after the author interviewed French to have all the point of view. This is what makes it SO interesting… 😀
TMorhttp://www.defense.gouv.fr/defense/breves/les_rafales_francais_pour_la_1er_fois_a_kandahar
For the first time, Rafale in Kandahar.
The 3 fighters had a half-day stop in Tanagra, as the Greeks wanted to learn more on the capabilities of the fighter, and how it’s used since it entered service.
Sign In
