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TMor

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  • in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon news II #2502394
    TMor
    Participant

    Does this help ?

    Der Bundesrechnungshof ermittelte für die 180 EUROFIGHTER einen Systempreis inkl. Bewaffnung in Höhe von 24,5 Mrd. Euro.

    http://www.uni-kassel.de/fb5/frieden/themen/export/gew-henken.html

    Mit der Anschaffung des Eurofighter – dessen Entwicklung, Beschaffung und Bewaffnung auf mehr als 25 Mrd. Euro veranschlagt ist.

    http://dip.bundestag.de/btd/16/017/1601779.pdf

    Die Gesamtsumme der in Deutschland eingegangenen Zahlungsverpflichtungen im Eurofighter-Programm betrug per Dezember 2002 EUR 19,537 Mrd. Seither ist, inkl. Bewaffnung (IRIS-T, Meteor, TAURUS, JDAM) und für notwendige Änderungen im Bezug auf die Tranche-2, der Gesamtbetrag auf ca. EUR 23,5 bis 24 Mrd. angewachsen, wovon etwa EUR 7 bis 8 Mrd. bereits bezahlt wurden.

    http://www.airpower.at/news04/0505_de_t2/index.html

    According to :
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200607/cmhansrd/cm070327/text/70327w0014.htm

    The unit production cost of tranche 1 and 2 Eurofighter Typhoon, as published in Major Projects Report 2006, is £66.7 million.

    Let’s consider there’s a 17.5% VAT on this, this makes £56.76 m (still above £42m), or €75m… And this is for 2006.

    It seems that we have to go back to 1997 to find a £40s m figure :
    http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199798/cmhansrd/vo971104/text/71104w06.htm

    Mr. Spellar: The current estimated unit cost of Eurofighter for the UK is £40.2 million at today’s prices.

    In 2003, we had :

    Mr. Ingram: The Unit Production Cost of a Typhoon aircraft as published in Major Project Report 2003 is £56.8 million

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon news II #2502414
    TMor
    Participant

    Germany is said to pay about 21 bln including R&D.

    And do you know if this includes VAT ? What about industrials’ share ?

    Thx.

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon news II #2502546
    TMor
    Participant

    It is somewhat difficult as the prices are changing with new requirements etc. The costs for some nations haven’t been reported in detail. Germany is said to pay about 21 bln including R&D. AFAIK this includes simulators etc. as well.

    And weapons ?

    The numbers you posted seem to belong to Germany not the UK.

    I just forgot to mention this.

    Thanks.

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2502556
    TMor
    Participant

    2) VAT and money paid by industry still contribute to the overall total. Typhoon figures include them, as well. They’re relevant when comparing figures.

    Do UK pay all the R&D ?
    Please go answer me HERE.;)

    in reply to: Eurofighter Typhoon news II #2502557
    TMor
    Participant

    That compares quite closely with the UK Typhoon – £19 Bn for 232 aircraft = £81.896 m each.

    Ok.
    Does the £19Bn figure includes VAT ? (17.5% ?)

    If it’s the cost for UK, what are the costs for the 3 others Nations ?

    According to Defense Aerospace, for example, it’s €21.3Bn (5.87 for R&D and 15.4 for production). What does it include ?

    What are the share in R&D / Production of each nation implied ?

    Can someone provide us with such details, please ?:)

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2502604
    TMor
    Participant

    Again Jack, again trying to turn it to your advantage. I’m happy to see that you’re still having pleasure to read only what you want. I could have wrote only 5% of my previous post.

    They’re not properly audited or up to date figures – as the inconsistencies show – but they do give a good idea of the cost of Rafale.

    LoL. Just ok with 2008. Sorry. :rolleyes: (except for when i explicitely said otherwise). But i guess you’ve been told… As for the Typhoon DA5 apex.

    €35 Bn = £26 Bn

    He hé.
    €35.5… With VAT, and industrial share. Which isn’t interesting from the State PoV. This is why it only cost €28Bn, or 30Bn. Or 26 without the specificities of Rafale M.

    That compares quite closely with the UK Typhoon – £19 Bn for 232 aircraft = £81.896 m each.

    Ok, but let’s move it to a Typhoon topic, please, because i’m really interested in Typhoon’s figure too, as it’s even more a mess, and as i’m not native from any of those countries.

    The the Assemblée Nationale cost estimates are equally interesting:
    […]
    But it is higher than we’d been led to expect – and rather more believable.

    Is that surprising, when unit programme costs are so close?

    I just suggested that we do not comment upon those figure since i’ve still not hint of how they are calculated.

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2502645
    TMor
    Participant

    During last week, I’ve sent a couple of mail to Dassault Aviation so as to understand the multiple Rafale program costs estimates.

    A very nice guy answered me, quite accurately :

    Here we go :
    The first thing you have to know is that total program costs include :

    • R&D costs, which are paid at 25% by the industrials (mainly Dassault/Thales/Snecma), the other 75% being paid by the french state (thus, the taxpayers).
    • the quote production, which includes :
      • the industrialization
      • the production of 120 Rafale C
      • the production of 114 Rafale B
      • the production of 60 Rafale M
      • the simulators
      • spares
      • maintain means (on all levels)

    As we could find several figures such as 26billions, up to 35.5billions (a real mess), i wanted someone in the know to explain me this all…

    So :

    • the whole Rafale program should cost (only estimate) 28 billions Euros, for the tax payers. (which makes 95M€ per Rafale)
    • the quoted 33.5 billions figure is actually the latter one with VAT (+19.6%). Though it’s what the DoD paies, our state receive the VAT, that’s why it isn’t very interesting, actually. But the 4% cost overrun is calculated on this 33.5 figure, and guess what ? 4% of 33.5 makes 1.34billions. Because all those figures are a bit inaccurate, i think that it may be the 1.5billions Jackonicko was wondering about.
    • Since tax payers do not pay the industrials share in R&D, the total costs are estimated around 30billions (28+2billions), which makes a bit more than 35.5billions with VAT.
    • And (sorry Jack, i’m not comparing, the the Dassault’s CEO did it), the 26billions figure is actually false : it’s the estimate of Rafale program cost if the Rafale M hadn’t been developed. The goal of this figure is to compare the Rafale’s cost to Typhoon’s cost, on a comparable basis (from taxpayers point of view).

    Then, i asked the guy about the quoted 11billions R&D figure in some documents from the Assemblée Nationale. He answered me that again, it was a price with VAT.
    France actually pays 7.2billions in R&D for the full program. And the industrials pay 25% which makes nearly 2 billions. (9.2 x 1.196 = 11).

    All of this leaves 20.8billions for the quote production, and I’m trying to get details about this part, but it’s very hard to find someone who can talk to me about this, as Dassault doesn’t know how it’s calculated. Also i’m trying to contact our DoD.
    This was for the latest estimates.

    To give you an idea about the quote production, i only can provide you with those figures from the Senat in 1999 (in millions, converted in Euros) :

    • Quote production : 22,193
      • industrialization : 2,727
      • production of 95 Rafale C : 4,153
      • production of 139 Rafale B : 6,514
      • production of 60 Rafale M : 2,989
      • simulators : 186
      • spares : 5,597 (not included in 1998 estimate)
      • maintain means (on all levels) : ? (not detailed or not even included in 1999 estimate)

    But keep in mind that those figures have changed (the quote production being less).

    As i asked the Dassault man about cost increases in R&D, while the total cost remained unchanged, he told me that the quote production had decreased due to better productivity (CATIA, etc), and that it’s still decreasing : they are catching up the 4% costs overrun.

    And last, the Assemblée Nationale latest unit cost estimates are :

    • 52.8 Millions Euros for a Rafale C (44.1 without VAT)
    • 56.6M€ for a Rafale B (47.3 without VAT)
    • 60.8 M for the M (50.8 without VAT)

    The problem is that, again, i don’t know who they are calculated yet. 😮

    Added : the program is to last from 1989 to 2021 (last delivery).

    I just hope that the program won’t be cut. 😮

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2502789
    TMor
    Participant

    When the rights coordinates are provided by guys on the ground, INS/GPS isn’t a problem. In addition, AASM seems to have demonstrated each time a better accuracy than in the specs.

    IIR isn’t available yet. It’s a shame. 😡 The Sagem is very late, it’s the least we can say.

    arthuro > funny, finally, the AASM is so late that it will come with the F3 !

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2502893
    TMor
    Participant

    “I don’t know why they aren’t bringing the brand new AASM…”

    At the risk of provoking a tirade of abuse, I’d suggest the following:

    1) Though test fired and close to operational status, AASM isn’t actually operational yet.

    2) EC 7’s pilots haven’t trained with the weapon.

    3) Though it offers great precision, it is perhaps too expensive to justify using against the kind of targets being engaged by French air power in Afghanistan.

    4) Perhaps the version of the weapon that is available now is too big, giving too much effect?

    5) Any glide/powered weapon is capable of greater miss distances than a simple ballistic weapon (because if everything turns to dust, it can fly further) and this may restrict its employment under the RoE that are in force. A Paveway II dropped on a given target will always land within a relatively small ‘circle’ even if the guidance fails – an AASM or a Maverick or a Hellfire could make it to the next town.

    The interesting question will be as to which LGBs they are deploying with. Are they LGBs or dual mode (Enhanced Paveway)? How big are they – 125 kg, 250 kg or 500 kg?

    “At the risk of provoking a tirade of abuse, I’d suggest the following:”
    ->Why ? Do you think i’m a psychopath ? http://www.websmileys.com/sm/evil/teu22.gif

    1) Yes.
    2) Actually, though the weapon isn’t operational yet, the Rafale had already the capability to train… I don’t know how to translate “conduite de tir”, but the AASM was already in the softwares, and this is what allowed the pilots to simulate it in Tiger Meet or TLP for example.
    Maybe real training with real weapons are prefered… But at least, they should already know how the weapon works.
    3) The unit price is around 143,000 €. (430M€ for 3000 weapons). That’s actually 10 times more than a mere GBU-12. So it IS expensive. It has the price of a missile.
    4) It’s based on the Mk82 (240kg) just as the GBU-12.
    5) The ASSM combine INS/GPS. If one fails, the other should prevent it from falling too far, i think.

    The deployed LGB are still the GBU-12/22.
    But this time, those Rafale will be able to use the gun.:D

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2502915
    TMor
    Participant

    http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2008/02/trois-rafale-se.html

    3 Rafale have left for Afghanistan (destination Kandahar).
    This is the second deployment of this type.

    This time, these are 3 single seaters, and again, they’ll use GBU… I don’t know why they aren’t bringing the brand new AASM…:mad:

    On their way, they’ll stop for a full day in Athen, i let you guess why. 😎

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2503249
    TMor
    Participant

    I remember some of you have shown interest in this kind of lists (with the precious help of Rafale56) :

    Technologies demonstrator :
    A : Châteaudun (stopped flying)

    Prototypes :
    C01 : Châteaudun (stopped flying)
    M01 : Dassault Aviation Istres (stopped flying)
    B01 : Dassault Aviation Istres (?)
    M02 : Dassault Aviation Istres (development of F3 standard)

    Ordered as Rafale F1 :
    03/26/1993 :
    B301 : Dassault Aviation Istres (development of F3 standard)
    M1 : Dassault Aviation Istres (development of F1 standard) (?)

    02/17/1994 :
    B302 : Dassault Aviation Istres (development of F3 standard)
    M2 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (F1 standard)
    M3 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (F1 standard)

    09/13/1995 :
    C101 : Dassault Aviation Istres (development of F3 standard)
    M4 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F1)
    M5 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F1)
    M6 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F1)
    M7 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F1)
    M8 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F1)
    M9 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F1)
    M10 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F1)

    The M1 flew on the 7th of july 1999 for the first time.

    1999 order for 48 Rafale F2 :
    At the begining, it was to be as following :

    • 28 Rafale (21 Air + 7 Marine)
    • +20 option (12 Air + 8 M)

    For a total of 33 Air + 15 M.

    This was finally changed for 32 Air (7 C and 25 B) and 16 Marine.

    7 Rafale C

    C102 : CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EF)
    C103 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HR) (formerly 330-EG)
    C104 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HH)
    C105 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HE)
    C106 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HG)
    C107 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HJ)
    C108 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HS)

    25 Rafale B

    B303 : ECE 05.300 “Côte d’Argent” CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EA)
    B304 : ECE 05.300 “Côte d’Argent” CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EB)
    B305 : ECE 05.300 “Côte d’Argent” CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-EC)
    B306 : ECE 05.300 “Côte d’Argent” CEAM Mont-de-Marsan (330-ED)

    B307 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-IA) (formerly 330-EE, played the Tiger Meet, had the tail painted).
    B308 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HA)
    B309 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HB)
    B310 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HC)
    B311 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HD)
    B312 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HF) operation Serpentaire II
    B313 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HI)
    B314 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HP) operation Serpentaire II
    B315 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HK)
    B316 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HL) lost on the12/6/2007
    B317 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HO)
    B318 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HM) operation Serpentaire II
    B319 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HN)
    B320 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HV)
    B321 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HQ)
    B322 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HU)
    B323 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HT)
    B324 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HW)
    B325 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HX)
    B326 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HY)
    B327 : EC 01.007 “Provence” Saint-Dizier (7-HZ)

    16 Rafale M

    M11 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2) operation Serpentaire II
    M12 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2) operation Serpentaire II (dropped 3 GBU-12, painted on the side)
    M13 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2) operation Serpentaire II
    M14 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2)
    M15 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2)
    M16 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2)
    M17 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2)
    M18 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2)
    M19 : Flottille 12F Landivisiau (standard F2)
    M20 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac (standard F2)
    M21 : Dassault Aviation Mérignac (standard F2) (spotted, out of the plant, in december 2007)

    Then, we’re waiting for the next 59 Rafale ordered in 2004.

    • 36 Rafale C
    • 11 Rafale B
    • 12 Rafale M

    The 8 delayed (6 Air, 2 Marine) on this last order are still taken into account (the 120 figure remains). They will probably be re-ordered in 2008.

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2506579
    TMor
    Participant

    It is said that the 4th batch will be ordered this year. It is expected to cover 60 aircraft.

    We hope so.

    Because in fact, every most important and big programs are being questioned so as to take decisions in the coming months.

    This doesn’t mean that there will be cuts, or new delays for the Rafale (H.Morin (defense minister) explicitly denied it), but we lack the money, and every possibility is being studied so as to take the best decisions.

    We don’t know anything more. That’s a difficult issue.
    Jack, i’ve put you in my ignore list, but i’ve seen this :

    When will the French Government have to commit funding for long-lead items for the next batch?

    When will it have to commit to avoid the expense of a production gap?

    Is Rafale a political issue in France, or likely to become one?

    And these are clever and interesting questions…
    So :
    1) and 2) A 60 fighters order HAVE to be committed in 2009 at worst (expected for late 2008 or 2009). If it was done too late, then the 8 fighters would be purchased in 2008 to avoid a production gap. This is my understanding of the situation.
    3) Rafale isn’t a political issue. Even if some thought that Hervé Morin criticized it, he only said that it was too sophisticated to compete against the F-16. But Hervé Morin has no problem in saying that this fighter is very satisfying, that it’s a very good and useful aircraft, etc.
    From left to right, Rafale has no enemy in France among politicians, or at least not among those who governs, or governed.

    But we lack money, and Rafale is a big program, very costly, which raises criticism among those in the AdA who would have preferred to have an improved M2000, or who complains about the low availability of our current fighters (60% in France, though it’s much better when deployed). Of course, we could still try to fly the good old Mirage III (i think you all understand what i mean).:mad:

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2506738
    TMor
    Participant

    2 points :
    -Currently, 234 Rafale are planned for the AdA, and among them, 124 are single seaters.
    -Dassault is developing a system to make the Rafale capable of launching small satellites (up to 150kg at 800km).
    http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2008/01/le-rafale-va-t.html

    in reply to: multirole vs dedicated, single seat vs dual seat #2507432
    TMor
    Participant

    @ Pioneer :
    According to the Colonel Moussez in the last “Air Fan” (January), the final number of Rafale is 234 for the AdA.
    This makes :
    -124 single seater;
    -110 twin seater;
    Then, the Marine should receive a total of 60 Rafale, all being single seater, of course.
    In fact, for the AdA, up to now, the target is 53% of single seater. 😉
    Twin seaters are better for long range and higly complicated missions, though every Rafale allow the pilot to handle all the missions.

    in reply to: Rafale news II : we go on #2509163
    TMor
    Participant

    I also read that spectra is using AESA, I can’t remember where unfortunately, perhaps another french poster (Tmor?) have it?

    http://www.eudil.fr/eudil/tec35/hyper/hyperc3.htm

    Notons que le SPECTRA, Système d’autoProtECTion de l’avion de combat RAfale, sera le premier programme militaire français à engendrer une production significative de MMIC GaAs, tant dans le domaine du faible niveau que celui de la puissance.

    Spectra has introduced, in France, high level of production of AsGa MMIC. So, Spectra uses this kind of MMIC.
    Then, of course, Spectra uses electronically steered antenna, but this doesn’t mean that those MMIC are used for AESAs on Spectra.
    MMIC have a lot of applications (amplifiers, phase-shifters… ?)…

Viewing 15 posts - 931 through 945 (of 1,365 total)