Jolanta NowakDont take this the wrong way or anything but I think the real deterring was done by the US. Sure the UK played its part but until the arrival Polaris the UK lacked a credible nuclear capability. Partly though economics and partly through geography.
Which ‘wrong way’ would that be?
You’re right, of course, about the real deterrence being U.S. provided. That was a matter of sheer numbers.
As far as the U.K. and France were concerned, the word was strangely applied from start to finish. The scenario being contemplated was one in which 1. the Soviets launched a ‘conventional’ invasion of Western Europe 2. Nato land forces surrendering or being overwhelmed and 3. the U.S. president then not having the gonads to threaten the nuclear (NOT pronounced noo-kew-lurr, thanks) option.
We would then have had the option to threaten a nuclear response of our own… without any word of demur from a U.S. which feared, quite rightly, escalation to global level… as if!
So far from being a ‘deterrent’ to any nuclear attack by the Soviets, it was an undeclared first use policy, designed to offer a cheaper option to that of maintaining massively greater conventional forces. ERWs (neutron bombs) and SRBMs then made their appearance and rendered the whole scenario a laughing stock.
Jolanta NowakThe problem with Blue Steel was its range, or rather lack off.
Absolutely – but this gives rise to an interesting thought. Wikipedia gives the performance as max 2.3 Mach and max 150 mile range. Back of a fag packet maths gives me an initial TTT (time to target) of 6 mins. Of course, this doesn’t allow for acceleration etc but, even if doubled, makes for scant time for defensive measures.
To me it looks interesting but, as you say, the planners eventually gave up on the Vulcans getting within firing range, even at low level.
Jolanta NowakGood in what way? Accuracy? Reliability? Ability to make it through defenses?
Yep, that about sums up ‘good’. Bravo.
I thought that information might be a bit thin on the ground so left the exact criteria open… as one does…
Jolanta NowakAccording the British Secret Projects: Hypersonics, Ramjets and Missiles, BAC at Stevenage proposed (some time in 1961 it looks like) a British alternative to Skybolt, the X.12B.
This was an air-launched ballistic missile, a three-stage solid rocket version of the X.12.
Launch aircraft was to be the VC.10 (this could carry four of the earlier X.12).
Does anyone have any information on this?
Yes, I’ve heard, over the years, of a number of would-be attack roles for commercial planes, including using Concordes as an RAF standoff platform.
To the best of my knowledge, the Nimrod is the only thing that’s come even remotely close. I’d be happy to be reminded of anything else.
I’ve no idea about the Skybolt ‘alternative’ but when it comes down to it, this is all a bit fanciful.
Jolanta NowakSeems to me that this is just a matter of technology.
It could be argued that most of what a manned aircraft does is already long distance/remotely handled… guided missiles, smart weapons etc.
What I’m considering, in removal of human in-situ control of events, is surely simply a further step away in terms of remoteness, is it not? Given the fact that you’re saving your own side’s lives, together with other considerable pluses like saving on training/equipment/personnel, there has to be mileage in this.
Jolanta NowakSo how many people can now expect to have scale models of the ‘Millennium Falcon’ with a couple of spent, strapped-on sky rockets land on their heads on Nov. 5th..?
Jolanta NowakWhat do they need strategic bombers for?
Is really anybody else fed up with money, so they can attack priority list item number 2814?
Absolutely. What a totally futile discussion – as if any future wars would involve ‘strategic bombing’. Excuse me while I, together with all the ICBM manufacturers, share a giggle…
Everyone knows that the resumption of ‘Bear patrols’ is simply dear Vladimir playing up to the Russian public’s predilection for the ‘strong man’. Over there, it’s a scenario as old as the hills and certainly pre-dates communism by a distance. ‘The whole world is against us’…
Jolanta NowakI dont mean to be funny or anything but even Syrias friends seem to have been distinctly muted over this one. This is the kind of event that usually causes Middle east wide Arab condemnation but everyone is keeping very quiet. Makes one wonder if there is more to this than meets the eye.:confused:
There probably is.
And whatever ‘it’ might be, it’s still irrelevant to the simple fact that sooner or later, the running sore which is Israel’s attitude to the arabs will end up pushing the world into something much worse than we have encountered so far.
If you think ‘9/11’ was bad, let’s just keep arming the Israelis, bankrolling their economy and turning a blind eye to their conduct…
… you probably ‘ain’t seen nothin’ yet’…
Jolanta NowakOne of these days, in the admittedly extremely unlikely event that the largely pro-zionist US media might be caught off guard for a short while, the West might just wake up and realise exactly what kind of ‘friend’ it has in the state of Israel.
This is one of those issues where boys-with-their-toys discussions of exactly whch bits of flying hardware might be involved are substantially irrelevant to the overall picture.
Jolanta NowakIn an ideal world we could give up the police too and criminals would change their ways. I’m not holding my breath. Unilateral disarmament is one of the dumbest ideas the left has come up with yet.
Given that your breath, together with all else you hold dear, would be snuffed out by one of the possible consequences of nuclear proliferation, maybe it’s worth considering the other options for just a teensy while..?
As to the actions of Israel which, now that Nazi Germany and Apaartheid South Africa have gone their way, is now the world’s sole remaining state based on ethnic engineering and one which has illegally occupied the land of others for 40+ years, who is going to blink an eye at yet another contravention of international law or one more infringement of the sovereignty of neighnouring states?
Certainly not its bankrollers and armourers in the U.S…
It’s as if the West actually gets anything in return from Israel.
How many British Army dead can be accounted for by the Zionist terrorist gunmen (oops, sorry … ‘founding fathers’) who bombed and murdered their way to statehood?
How many Americans have been deliberately prevented from hearing the words ‘U.S.S Liberty’ uttered in any inquiry..?
How many Frenchmen congratulated themselves on their wonderful MirageIII deal with Israel when certain torpedo boats disappeared from Cherbourg..?
The American Jewish lobby has a lot to answer for – and the ‘lot’ may grow considerably bigger still as the running sore of this unresolved conflict festers away, fuelling the vast majority of Muslim anti-Western sentiment.
Jolanta NowakI seem to recognise the basic design as one dreamed up by the ‘Skunk’ works on April 1st last.
You’ll notice it belongs to the ultra-secret ‘white projects’ series, far more hush-hush than the black nonsense and, if my sources are correct, this ‘fold down the middle’ concept is currently undergoing intense evaluation…
… at Area 52, of course…
Jolanta NowakAnd “strangled at birth by US jealousy”? Might want to get your facts straight and keep erroneous opinions out of it.
Waits patiently for proof of the ‘erroneous’ nature of her opinions…
Jolanta NowakAh yes, the ‘Caspian Sea Monster’. Anyone else catch the TV documentary on this a year or so back? A fascinating beast. Could be the technology may yet be revived.
Jolanta NowakWhy? It’s not like they’re going to have single-pilot aircraft flying 14 hour missons. “Okay we want you to CAP over here for six hours (while toting your 8000lbs of bombs around) and then fly 500 miles into enemy territory, take out this SAM site, go over here and bomb this factory, then come back for four more hours of CAP and then RTB”. Please. An aircraft on a bombing mission carrying AAMs has them for self defense. It’s NOT going to go looking for aircraft to shoot down. IF an aircraft is going into an area where enemy fighters are expected (and it’s not a stealth aircraft) it will likely go in escorted. During Desert Storm even A-10s went in with AAMs and who got the kills? The F-15s escorting everybody. The odd kill from others was the exception not the rule. The Hornets that shot down a couple Mig-21s on their way to the target area only made it to the target area because the kills were easy ones. If they’d had to jettison their bombs to mix it up with the fighters they’d have failed their primary mission. Again, attack aircraft do NOT go LOOKING for trouble.
Dispute away. There’s making something and then there’s making something cheap enough to field. Sure they’re working on credit-card sized turbine engines using micro-machine technology, always on smaller electronics, and so forth but making it all small enough and cheap enough to have a bullet that can fly around corners and so forth to take out a single man? I’m not holding my breath.
Nobody’s asking you to engage in asphyxia. However, your rosy picture of a nice, cosy F-15 CAP always being there for the ground attack jockeys is what happens on the theory board but not always in a shooting war. Firing off a couple of wingtip Sidewinders and then finding yourself defenceless and still surrounded by a bevy of hostiles is not the option of choice for your average pilot.
Like I said, we seem to have here a scenario where the technology, the financial incentive and the mission benefit all co-incide. That only usually ever means one thing.
Oh and who’s necessarily talking ‘bullet’-sized smart things? There’s a helluva lot of scope between bullets and Stingers/Iglas weight and size-wise, let alone your average air or ship launched job…
Jolanta NowakAny ideas what this is?
It looks remarkably like what the local council uses to collect my rubbish.
I always knew that one day, if I kept paying my council tax conscientiously, I’d end up as the proud, collective, part-owner of some surface-to-air guided wheelie bins.
My Russian isn’t what it used to be but I think I can just about make out the cyrillic for ‘Swindon & District’…
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