Wayne could you make a high resolution immage of the spectra available either on the forum or by direct pm.
I have a small decal labeled “AIR” running 200CPS on an NE BP4 mainly beta.
This in double Zip lock bags!!!
After 18 months a check of the carrier bag outer containment’s inner surface revealed counts in region of 18 to 25 CPS. In the 222Rn ROI
Single radon atoms can and will difuse
most any place it seems. A little look into aerosol physics explains the issue

updates off the net

What you all need is “bionerd23”, a seemingly fearless (brainless) Rinemaiden.
She knows her stuff though, well mostly and has access to some sweet kit.
Relighs mainly on a Gamna Scout circa $500 with shiping + customs + handling +VAT Yer right. Nice bit of kit though an
a/b/g meter calibrated in cps uSv and mSv she apears to be a student so it cant be that costly WRONG.
There is a google group— geiger counter enthusiasts— mainly American also a neutron sub group yes they seem quite keen to generate neutrons, all in the interest of science you understand mmmm. Well takes all sorts.
Its all out there on the web.
Check out the bionerd23 she is not a little irespincible but there is some good info in there if you can follow her anticks.
USA still have Victoreen CD V 700 with a thin wall beta gamna GM tube. $220 at yer door, HMRC & GPO permitting
It displays cps & mR/hour BUT we in europe use SI units Grays & Siverts [more complication lots more]. The R stands for Roentgen a legasy unit not directly equivalent to the SI unit.
See wiki cut and paste below.
Kerma is energy dumped in a mass of air.
Roughly 100R = 0.877 Grey its a smaller unit..

[3]*One roentgen of air*kerma*deposits 0.00877*gray*(0.877*rad) of*absorbed dose*in dry air, or 0.0096 gray (0.96 rad) in soft tissue.[4]*One roentgen (air kerma) of X-rays may deposit anywhere from 0.01 to more than 0.04 gray (1 to 4 rad) in bone depending on the beam energy.[5]*This tissue-dependent conversion from kerma to absorbed dose is called the*F-factor*in radiotherapy contexts. The conversion depends on the ionizing energy of a reference medium, which is ambiguous in the latest NIST definition. Even where the reference medium is fully defined, the ionizing energy of the calibration and target mediums are often not precisely known.
Confused yet It gets me every time.
Big mug of black coffe dont aproach after 10 in the morning or you melt your brain.
Ballpark divide mR by 115 to get Grey for beta/gamna Grey = Siverts.
There are some eastern block instruments ib SI units the bionerd23 features some.
I have never used any no idea on price either. Try Google.
You are prob looking at a “pancake” tube GM counter with a beta filter lump of ally across tube window
Bout it really
Just simple common sence and a suitable counter. I live near Farnborough and for traveling expenses would come and frisk stuff say S of Oxford and E of Sailsbury.
We need like minded experts spread across the UK to provide a service to collectors.
Now there’s a thought.

oops

Hi
Further thoughts on radio luminescent instruments ingrouth
Secular equilibrium (s.e.)
Radium abundance
Ingrouth
Given daughters are much shorter lived than progenitor
It can be generally said that after 5 half lives of of longest lived daughter the whole series decaying at the same rate as progenitor.
In time activity increases. All daughters in s.e. so there is greater activity with time.
Ra abu dance
Whatever the isotopic mix of the original Ra 226 from the 238U series will be all that,s left

Re setting up to decontam.
The inevitable on site activity will require you to be licensed under Radio Active Substances Act 93 And follow the procs. set out in IRR99. RSA93 has updates as well 2001
I have heard Amasham International charge up to£1000 ea for disposal.
For Gods sake nobody do anything stupid to raise the issue above the radar, NRPB & Environment Agency seem content at the moment lets keep it that way.

Oh DO NOT screen with a sheet of lead use 10mm ally or 25mm plexiglass.
Any high atomic weight screen will stop the beta radiation,of which there is a fair amount, dead liberating Bremsstrahlung X rays.
see its complicated again.

There is no good cheap monitor.
Remember the issue is contamination spread not how long have I got to live!!! You will need at least a beta monitor. As an example a bloody great chunk of thoriated mag alloy gives us 25 uSiverts gamma. Same thing chucking out 200 counts per second beta. Hard to miss!!! Smaller quantities the gamma will sink into the background.
Clearing up one point for some but not all.
Gamma & X rays are em radiation like light IR radio and cosmic rays. They can make it through a house brick if energetic enough no trouble.
Alpha and beta rays arn’t they are particles helium nucleii and electrons simply in a hurry.
Alpha go max 10mm in air Beta max 1m in air. again energy dependent.
To detect Alpha requires special kit best take swabs and place in vacuum chamber to count complicated again
with beta particles most end window GM tubes will detect beta likewise end window scintillation devices.
A cheep and chearfull GM device will not show up contamination adequately.
Leave it all well alone unless you are in the industry and can manage the risk. If you were you wouldn’t any way would you? One good size compass is intermediate level waste so you would contravene RSA99 and be in doo doo if caught.
jb154

edited on laptop 16:01 15/12/13

In defence of the airframe type

Just a quick one in relation to Lightning reliability.
The F53/55 in Saudi, well up at RSAF Tabuk, pretty much met the 60% OR (operational readyness) rate day in day out. Of the circa 50 airframes only one I know of was lost due to a “tech issue”
How did they manage it.
A demanding customer, Rigerous work load control, the cream of technicians, thorough pre detachment training & oh a botomless money pit but this only helped a tad.
I seem to have a figure of 75,000 hrs total, any body know the true figure?
so one, no nore lije two in 75 K.
MTBF is well you do the math.
jb154

Lightning servicing

Speaking as a aircraft electrician who spent 6 years working on Lightnings from RAF Binbrook, I find all the uninformed comments on the aircraft quite amusing, it is a fact of life that the Lightning never stood a chance of flying in UK airspace and the reason given from the CAA “too complex” too right it is complex and had the care and attention which only in service life was possible. costs were no problem then, as were personnel in numbers and expertise.

An operation like Thunder City made the best of what they set out to do, being a commercial business, but I find it very hard to see how they managed to service the Lightning to anything like was required in the RAF. It took far more servicing to flight hours than you can ever imagine just to keep it airworthy, all achieved at great cost to the MOD. Sad that the saga ended up with the loss of a pilot, but in my opinion was going to happen sooner rather than later. The Lightning is most definitely not a pleasure trip aircraft and glad to say that there are two I know that are in great nick for fast taxing, and hopefully for years to come will remain so.

In my humble opinion the only outfit that came close to servicing the lightning properly was BAC in Saudi Arabia. they returned close on 35 airframes back to UK with close on 2000 hrs on them, on average. As far as I can tell they only lost one to a tech fault. Now I know this means maths but that looks like 75,000 odd fleet hours for one ******s muddle. Given that we still have the active lightning base RAF Dogger Bank!!! lets not get too excited about the UK record with the lightning.
I know the aircraft quite well and she’s a bitch. Keep on her back with no deviation from SOP’s and or best possible practice and she will perform.
We had one do 16 sorties before she was back in the hangar for a RED X entry. Av/Nav Radio kit would do HPO 250 to HPO 250 even the bullets would do 8 + sorties some much longer.
How did they do it.
The Design authority running the show. More money that you can throw a stick at and importantly one of the best team of engineers I have had the privilage to work with.

It can be done but you gota be good damn good.

Remember mear civillians designed and built them. So then the blue jobs did their thing with them so we dont have to learn Russian ….yet….. There were a few casualities along the way of course.

I met an ex Binbrook engineering oficer outside of Taunton some while back and he remarked on the concourse state of the returning aircraft, “not at all like our workaday Lightning,s”
She’s a thoroughbread not a work hourse that EVOLVED from an experimental air craft to test the latest thinking on SS wing design. Not a top down design. that much is obvious every time you try to do anything on her. The Drawing office / hangar floor link must have been a bit tenuous to say the least.
I do speak from long asociation with MOD and had a 2185 for 35 years – the time spent in kingdom, reinstated on return.

an ex Tabuk Mushroom

Anyone seen this on the Ramco website, XS458 is up for tender, is at Skegness at the moment and has to be moved by mid-May, offers invited, could be a cheap airframe for some ones back garden.:)

http://www.ramco.co.uk/uploaded/stock/LIGHTNINGspecsheet.pdf

On for copulations sake you nerds and couche engineers

XS456 was at Wainfleet Golf club been there gor some pictures.
XS 458 is a runner AT CRANFIELD and under care of their team supported by Gatwick aviation museum and AALO. This airframe IS NOT FOR SALE at the time of righting and is a runner. I was on tjhe team till I mooved to Gtwick.

GET your facts straight.

Remember HMG monitor these forums and a careless word can drop a load of us in a load of Poo.

At GAM we have two Licenced air transport engineers and two highly qualified aero engineers, ona team of six. You arm chair punters can realy mess things up with your speculations.

456 is in a fair state of preservation considering and a good ivestment for someone
barking mad B

OC AALO xs422 electrics and elsewise lightning engineer EX 30 MU, EX RSAF Tabuk SA, EX Farnborough,, EX Boscoombe Down
So there chew on that

Its a wind up it has to be.

Who would be daft enough to post on an aviation forum an “I hate puddle jumpers” type post.

Well I do actually I hates them and R22’s wana swat the bloody little things.

there are only two types of aircraft

1). Those of slender design with NO Engine whatsoever. Awsome

and

2). Those with two preferably powerful jet engines equipped for combat.
even more awsome

But we all have to start somewhere and I guess this poor sod lives under a GA training area. If it is a genuine case.

C’mon Pigeon fancier or whatever you are fess up.

jb154 a Lightning nut.

PS anybody got a Lightning auto trim indicator really need one for the UK side Instrument Test rig for XS422 out in good old USA

Plan is we are servicing all lelcy. / Inst. kit here in UK; so need to make a complete mock-up of the installation. So have a huge list of bits required.
They don’t have to be flight worthy but recoverable to a state where they will pass the SST in the relevant A.P. which we have C/O thunder city. we have a shipping arrangement with a sponsor in US so should work out OK.

any offers???? She is getting very close

Oh groan

As some geek, well you have to be, who knows a little bit about Lightnings I am involved with 422 and have 2C its electrics all do their stuff.

We have on the 422 crew a group, working out of some other place, who in combination, know more about Lightnings than any one else outside of South Africa.
We will sort out the 422 airframe if that is possible. Its in a recoverable state by US standards.

This will be done for whoever happens to own it at the time.

Hey guess what I actually worked on them and we made the 60% “O.R.” rate most of the time.

Hey and they wanted me back. Ho HO.

So If I say it can be done it will happen.

May be not to UK specs. but to US or SA specs.

Would I ride in it???

Well yes after I have been through it and checked off all my bits and seen all the “heavy” bits checked off to the same standard.

She has FI left

Rather than sit at your keyboards and nit pick why not get involved.

Stood close to a Lightning with both donks on 65%, being somewhat responsible for the event, is to say the least inspiring.
Come on we are ready to teach you; there are too few ready to WORK THEIR NUTS OFF on this bit of Brit heritage.

jb154