😡 Oh. 😡 My. 😡 God.

(Click) RANT ON (assumes condescending tone of voice)

Manonthefence, let us go through your points, one by one:-

😡 You want it brought back.
Fine. That is your opinion. My opinion is that you are wrong, very wrong, but there you go. Can’t all think alike, it would make for a very boring world.

😡 We have paid with 50 soldiers lives?:mad: 😡 😡
We paid?:mad: So what was your share of those men’s deaths?:mad: You didn’t pay, I didn’t pay; they did, and maybe the price was way too much – certainly was for them.:mad: I would not pay for a Fury – any Fury – with one mans life. Who are you to decide that any one of those men were worth trading for a knackered old aeroplane wreck? And if that is the case – and your exchange rate is 50 men = 1 old wreck – then what else are you going to take as the price grows? More importantly what are the Americans going to take in payment? (And remember, they will have more call on the Fury since they have more of them! They have lost more men so they have first pick!) The Fury isn’t priceless – there are dozens in America, some Sea Furies with a proper British history too, and there is no way you are going to have any luck convincing them to return their beloved machines – but even now there are still quite a few priceless but ancient artefacts left in Baghdads museums so lets take those! Still not enough? Hell, sod the Iraqis! Lets take that power station; we could do with a few at home and so could the Yanks! And mustn’t forget the oil.

😡 The Iraqis don’t care about the Fury.
I can understand that. I can also understand that less than a tenth of 1% of the British population goes to the biggest airshow in Britain. Therefore I deduce that the British public don’t care for old aeroplanes either. But then we haven’t just had a socking great conflict – no matter how one-sided it was – right on our doorstep so what is our excuse? Maybe we have become too luxury orientated whilst they have had to concentrate on the essentials – and what does that tell you about us?

😡 Maybe you don’t give a toss.
Maybe you speed on motorways and in towns, drop litter in the street, act in a generally obnoxious manner to someone at some point every day. Everyone does – me included – and usually we don’t mean to but we do. We don’t give a toss. But when nations start not giving a toss, start disregarding the smaller, less able countries and deciding that we have more right to something of theirs – what ever it is – then that is what starts wars, builds hatred, breeds suicide bombers, flies airliners into things, etc. An awful lot of Saudis didn’t like the way the Americans ignored their way of life (drinking, ogling women, acting in an uncouth manner, exposing more skin than acceptable in public, wearing shoes in sacred places, maybe even eating pork) whilst defending the Iraqi border for the last 12 years. Ask bin Laden about that, if you can, since he is regarded by more and more Saudis as giving a toss. I predict there will probably be nasty things happening in Saudi Arabia sometime soon. Witness Israel and the way the Palestinian man in the street feels he has nothing to lose by becoming a walking bomb on a bus or in a plaza. They give a toss. You? As you said, you don’t give a toss.

😡 UNIMPORTANT?
Oh yes, and Furies are VERY important to us. We have loads and loads of history of flying ‘Baghdad’ Furies is action all over the world. How silly of me to forget! Good grief! Look at it with your brain – I love the Sea Fury (notice the S.E.A. bit? Good.) but apart from being a tiny foot note in Korea, a wonderful demonstration of naval history with the FAA Historic Flight until it crashed, and something that Yanks can mutilate to fly around poles in the desert at great speed, the Fury is just another aeroplane. If the Fury was so important to us then why did we (figuratively speaking) ignore all those that passed through our hands and sell them to Americans? Who protested about our national ‘treasures’ being exported then? Just as well the Americans don’t want all those Mustangs we have here back because they could care for them much better than we can!

😡 Appreciation of freedom.
That, my friend, is down to a lack of patience. Probably. Everything is always done now in America. You see it on TV, in the films. Burger and fries, now. Nobody ever waits for anything coz it is there, instantly. So when we go and destroy their power cables to shut down air defence radars you would think that we would be able to restore that no problem. End of the week? Yeah! Their culture is not that far removed from ours – if you lived in north east America the other week you would have initially feared that it was a terrorist attack, then really laid into the power companies for not getting their act together quick enough. Why should the Iraqis be any different? Because they are lousy no good Arabs who should be able to live on a tin of dog food a day? Have a look at the bloggers from Iraq. They are concerned with much more than water supplies and where their next tin of dog food is coming from.

Personally I would be extremely happy if all those who want the Fury so badly were to go out there and remove all the cluster bombs that are still actively killing kids, and then take the Fury away in payment for that. That is almost the only way the cluster bombs will be removed – the military don’t want to do it; its killing their men too – and, as I said earlier, that aeroplane is not worth one life. British, American, or Iraqi. But it will never happen.

I don’t see you standing up and demanding the Twin Pioneer be returned either. What’s wrong with the Twin Pin? Not sexy enough? Not fast enough? Couldn’t sell it to the Yanks for lots of money? Or maybe it has less appeal to the Iraqis and so has less appeal to you too? It is certainly a lot rarer than the Fury.

😡 Manonthefence, I am sure you are a very nice guy who is kind to animals and buys his mum flowers when ever he can, but your argument sets the art of diplomacy back big time.
Are you sure you aren’t American?:D 😀 😀

RANT OFF (click)

Let’s just agree to part as friends.;)

Flood.

Bump this to the top again! Oops!!!

Doubt the RNHF will get an example (they didn’t get an Attacker, Sea Vampire, Sea Venom, Sea Prince, Scimitar, Buccaneer, Gannet, a Hillier of either variety, Whirlwind, Wessex, Sea King, Phantom, Gazelle, etc) and if they do it will sit outside their hanger for the birds to perch on; can only hope a few other museums get an example!
The powers that be seem intent on scrapping stored SHars if they aren’t in service so I am wondering what they plan to sell when the SHars are phased out of service – ie Falklands vet ZA176 ex 006/R of 801NAS and due for scrapping at VL (Yeovilton) 6/03.

And I would not like to have a civil registered Harrier of any sort flying over me, my house, or anyone I care for. Sorry. (But maybe if they put in a reliable engine or two, took away the swivel mechanism and somehow flew it as a conventional aircraft… Nah. Never, ever happen.)

Flood.

Flood.

Gloster Meteor – Postwar Military Aircraft: 2 by Chaz Bowyer, published by Ian Allan, 1985, has WK655 as ‘M’ of 500 Sqn but no dates. It does not mention any but VZ508 with 151 Sqn, though.
Picked the book up for £1.49 in a bargain bookshop several years ago. Don’t know how accurate the information contained inside is (I used to worry that series’ of books like this were just brought out just to sit on coffee tables or fill the more inaccessible corners of the bookshelf, perpetuating misinformation on performance put out to fool the Russians in the 1950s etc!) but this type of book has served its purpose – with me – a few times now, if you can live with only approximate or vague data. Interesting to note that the only pic of 500 Sqn in the book has a formation of 9 F8s all in natural metal, so maybe this helps with the identification of the camouflaged ‘Bexley’.
Red Dwarf anyone?

Flood.

“Hey its and old ‘plane – we need it more than they do. They don’t give a damn about old ‘planes, they’d rather have water, food, and fuel. Blah blah blah.”

Duh! The Iraqis did care for it.
They must have since it wasn’t sold off with the others. If it is stolen from Iraq – and it is my personal belief that this is what it should be classified as – then we might as well repossess the contents of their museums (well, those that haven’t been totally looted) because, hell, WE WON and THEY LOST. Everything is ours, as the victors, to plunder. Let’s ravish the women and herd the kids off to mine coal or clean chimneys. We should line the men up, get them to drop their trousers and laugh at their underwear – or use them to test our new electronic cattle prods.
Tsk.
The Fury/s is/are/were museum pieces – in the same way that there used to be lots of Spitfires and Hurricanes rotting away at the gates of RAF bases in Britain. Anyone remember what happened to Spitfire MK732? Stolen from a life as a decoy on a Dutch airfield in the 50s and used by the RAF as a display airframe before becoming a spares source and subsequently the remains were returned to the RNethAF. Yes it probably survived because it was ‘stolen’ but in a court of law it is still theft.
The buried MiGs and Sukhois are probably fair game as war prizes – they represent the regime that was overthrown and there are probably lots of them – but the Furies never flew for Saddam. That said western museums will probably be able to obtain examples from the former eastern European countries much easier and in much better (i.e. not disinterred) condition anyway.
The Pucaras were taken from sovereign British soil. The WWII German and Japanese aircraft were taken as examples of axis technology (and some were taken as reparation – Ju52s for example) and some were tested – not that I can see much of the Iraqi Air Force being in any shape to be tested.
The only precedent that I can think of (concerning aviation museums, not works of art) is that of the Berlin Air Museum, some of the exhibits being evacuated to Poland in 1943 to avoid destruction. I can well understand why the Poles would not be well disposed to the Germans to return these airframes after the war but we, on the other hand, did not suffer at the hands of the Iraqi people; Saddams troops put up so little resistance that it has to be obvious to all but the most blood thirsty adrenaline junky (or maybe the odd politician) that the people didn’t care for their leader and few deliberately laid down their lives for him. We did not overthrow a nationally popular figurehead as was done in the war against Hitler, nor did we overthrow a living god as was done in the war against Japan; we overthrew a despot who was at best tolerated by most of his people (well, those that didn’t have explosives strapped to their bodies and blown up for fun, or gassed, or buried alive, or fed to his private zoo, or shot for target practise, etc) and they should not be treated as though their views do not count.
And Bob, have a think to yourself for a moment and wonder how many of the British population would identify this aircraft as a Spitfire if it flew over their disinterested heads one day in the future. We really are the only people who care for these ancient relics (I even heard a much decorated war veteran bitterly complain that the entire contents of the RAF museum should be scrapped because it brought back too many bad memories to him and fellow members of his former squadrons old boys. I now never express an interest when I meet these distinguished gentlemen, which is sad but I would rather not try to explain to their muscle-bound grandchildren why they have suddenly burst into tears after talking with me) but imagine the political out roar if the people who complain that the only reason we (and by that I mean us as a nation and not us personally) went into Iraq was to seize the oil supply decided that we were pillaging potential national treasures too. And I think that they would be right.
Mark V – pedantic I know but it is a Fury, not a Sea Fury. And it is the Iraqi peoples to do with as they wish, when they wish. If they want to let it rot on the gate of an airbase – fine. If they decide to sell it to some American fellow to hang a ruddy great engine on the front and clip the wings so that it flies around in circles at great speed like all the rest, fine.
The law would frown on me nipping into my neighbours front garden and making off with his rusting bicycle no matter that I could counter that argument by saying that he didn’t care for it and I would restore it. Spencer Flack once said (about colour schemes on Spitfires, but what the hell) something to the effect of it is mine to do with as I wish and that is the point: it is not ours to do anything with.

I hate getting political but I shall manfully stand up to those teddies that will surely be launched at me. (45 minutes?)

Flood.

Ooh! Love what you’ve done with those padded walls – and in such a nice shade of pale green too!
Never mind, I am in good company here. Just ask Mr Menu my pet whale when he comes back from skateboarding.
Please nurse, I don’t want any more of those pills!

Inmate 666 (formerly Flood)

Ha!

If they could have done then I expect they would have.
If there was anything visibly lying around loose – wings, engine, prop, etc – then that would have been grabbed and we would have heard of it before now, but I imagine the easiest bits would have been reclaimed at the time of the accident anyway.
Seem to recall that they struggled to get Wildcat V JV482 out of Lough Beg and eventually used an AAC chopper (Think the headline/caption probably played on the Wildcat and Lynx connection. The headline writers will have difficulty making the same connection trying to find some sort of ‘pirate’-y theme if the Corsair gets lifted!).
If the picture that I mentioned above was of JT693 then, yes, it could be recovered and flying in a few years – IF they lifted up the seaweed and inserted a different, complete, Corsair beneath!!! I expect that the reason it wasn’t recovered before was the difficulty they would have with the mud – again I must stress that my memory is useless but I recall that either the Wildcat or another mud wallowing wreck was difficult to get to due to the mud and then you have to think of the tides (I believe it is fairly flat around that way so the sea would appear to rush at you – unnerving when you know that it might take you an hour to wade ashore, as I know from experience).

BUT
Just checking on Google and up came http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Preserved/Corsair.html
which claims JT693 was recovered in 1994, but on another page on the same site – http://www.fleetairarmarchive.net/Aircraft/Preserved/FAAAircraftindex2000_A-H.html the information just mirrors Sturtivant’s and says it was found in 1994. Wrecks and Relics 18 (which I trust much more than a site which regards types which were tested for a few days – such as the Mitchell or Ventura – as more important – read more lineage – than some unspectacular but long serving types, ho hum) still has it in the Lough.

I’d like to believe, but…

Flood

I think they – probably – should have enough maintenance to prevent corrosion etc, but when nearly everything would be replaced just to return a museum exhibit to flight – and how many exhibits are rebuilt to flight standard? – then I feel that the best way to keep things honest is not to do more than is absolutely necessary (need I mention the 1:1 scale replica of HMS Victory sitting in the dockyard at Portsmouth?). Sometimes I feel that those fibreglass replicas have more provenance than the majority of the flying warbirds we have – at least they have 100% original ‘airframes’!
Better say it is great to see them flying but I would love to know what the percentage of the airframe started life with that particular serial number.

The Gladiator and Hurricane at Hendon work the emotion for me, but I think the restoration work on the Halifax really needs hiding since it looks so out of place (um from what I’ve seen in pictures – never actually seen it in the flesh).
The Skua at Yeovilton doesn’t work for me – it is much too open (hell, I prevented a ‘lovely’ little kiddy from kicking it to bits in front of his parents and got a “Go forth…” reply from his dad:mad: ), displayed in ‘atmospheric’ darkness, and it doesn’t look like anything more than an misshapen pile of scrap (:( sorry). Is there enough to restore anyway?
The Shorts 184, as I recall, was also quite accessible to inquisitive fingers (been to FAAM at least 5 times and everytime seem to gravitate to the Shorts 5 minutes before closing time!). I liked what they had done to the Albacore and the bits of Barracuda that were on show but, and I would love to see these types return from the (full airframe) dead, unless there are lumps of wing out there these would need to be fabricated – would they then be regarded as partial replicas? (I have nothing against replicas – despite appearances – but has it happened yet that a museum has restored a wreck by making a new major assembly, a wing set maybe, and then dismantled that completed exhibit and rebuilt it using genuine parts when they have been sourced? Just a thought.)

Where else are there wrecks on display?

Flood

Ohmigawd! One of those magic eye pix!

Don’t tell me – it’s a wing-walking hippo. No, it’s someone doing bunny-ears behind the Mona Lisa. A pig wearing a kipper tie? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Tee hee.

Methinks the Wing Commanders attempt at mooning failed – curse those braces! 😀

Flood