monguRE: Political leaders
Well, as this thread seems to have become a proxy for the modem-killing Dutch invasion thread…
1. What US policy casued 11/9?
What a strange question. I never implied what caused 11/9, I just said that foreign policy should be an area that is looked at. Clearly, the interraction of lots of different policies collectively caused resentment to the US.
2. Six Day War
Yes, UK/France supported Israel in the depths of time. Both countries have now basically realised that they lack the resources to be global policemen.
But if you go back even further, to after WW2 and just before the state of Israel was created…
In general, occupying British forces tried to be even-handed in their treatment of Muslims/Jews. Both sides resented it and both sides committed acts of terror against British forces.
I don’t think that the UK or France were ever, naturally, in favour of one side over the other. We helped Israel a little more, partly because of US pressure and partly, because there was a lot of Holocaust guilt at the time. The precise issues at hand were given insufficient attention.
Also, I do not think you are being very clever by referring to the way in which Arabs sometimes externalise their problems onto the Israeli situation. Yes, they do. I admit it. But how does that affect the principles involved? When it comes down to it, the Muslims have an equal claim over Israel as the Jews do. Europeans more or less accept this, the US denies it ferociously.
Also, I cannot conceive a possible reason why you knock the Palestinans so much! Yes, they support terrorists. Yes, women and children are murdered. But the same US citizens who condemn this, also supported tha ANC when they burned down Supermarkets and killed women and children in South Africa. The rationale seemed to be that this was justified, but the Palestinian attacks were not.
Take a step back from the principles for a second. Both groups (shall we say, the ANC and Islamic Jihad) were responsible for fairly similar acts. One is acceptable, but one is not. Why? Did white South Africans matter less than Israelis? Maybe they did, to the US – BUT NOT TO EUROPEANS.
monguRE: Political leaders
Well, as this thread seems to have become a proxy for the modem-killing Dutch invasion thread…
1. What US policy casued 11/9?
What a strange question. I never implied what caused 11/9, I just said that foreign policy should be an area that is looked at. Clearly, the interraction of lots of different policies collectively caused resentment to the US.
2. Six Day War
Yes, UK/France supported Israel in the depths of time. Both countries have now basically realised that they lack the resources to be global policemen.
But if you go back even further, to after WW2 and just before the state of Israel was created…
In general, occupying British forces tried to be even-handed in their treatment of Muslims/Jews. Both sides resented it and both sides committed acts of terror against British forces.
I don’t think that the UK or France were ever, naturally, in favour of one side over the other. We helped Israel a little more, partly because of US pressure and partly, because there was a lot of Holocaust guilt at the time. The precise issues at hand were given insufficient attention.
Also, I do not think you are being very clever by referring to the way in which Arabs sometimes externalise their problems onto the Israeli situation. Yes, they do. I admit it. But how does that affect the principles involved? When it comes down to it, the Muslims have an equal claim over Israel as the Jews do. Europeans more or less accept this, the US denies it ferociously.
Also, I cannot conceive a possible reason why you knock the Palestinans so much! Yes, they support terrorists. Yes, women and children are murdered. But the same US citizens who condemn this, also supported tha ANC when they burned down Supermarkets and killed women and children in South Africa. The rationale seemed to be that this was justified, but the Palestinian attacks were not.
Take a step back from the principles for a second. Both groups (shall we say, the ANC and Islamic Jihad) were responsible for fairly similar acts. One is acceptable, but one is not. Why? Did white South Africans matter less than Israelis? Maybe they did, to the US – BUT NOT TO EUROPEANS.
monguRE: BA’s Preffered Merger Partner-Iberia
My understanding is that the Spanish government is powerless to prevent a sale purely because the acquiror is foreign.
This would contravene the intra-EU principle of free movement of capital and the single market.
monguRE: BA’s Preffered Merger Partner-Iberia
I would imagine Iberia would be rebranded along the lines of Deutsche BA (before the low cost branding).
Basically, I would say the Spanish brand element would be retained with a superficial reference to BA; maybe a BA tailfin and a styilised BA paint scheme emphasising the Spanish connection.
monguRE: Political leaders
In the UK:
Very popular: Ireland, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand
popular: Germany (though no one admits it!), the rest of Scandinavia
Neutral: Spain, Russia, the USA, Switzerland (oddly!)
Unpopular: Argentina, Zimbabwe, France
I think people like Sauron know exactly what the impression of foregin leaders is!
monguRE: Political leaders
In the UK:
Very popular: Ireland, Sweden, Australia, New Zealand
popular: Germany (though no one admits it!), the rest of Scandinavia
Neutral: Spain, Russia, the USA, Switzerland (oddly!)
Unpopular: Argentina, Zimbabwe, France
I think people like Sauron know exactly what the impression of foregin leaders is!
monguRE: Weird development of this thread…
Phantom II,
If we are going to get into the nitty gritty, I may as well make a few points:
I did not say that 11/9 happened because the US was not diplomatic to terrorists. What I said was that one of the first respones should be to look inwards and ask “why?”. Unless you know why a particular event happened, how can you hope to prevent a recurrence? Foreign policy and diplomacy is one major area to look at.
The people who committed this act were monsters. They did it because they hated the US and you probably would not profit by going any deeper than that. But, millions of people in the Arab world cheered. What you have to analyse is the reasons why so many people celebrated. It’s not because they are evil.
You inadvertantly proved my next point as well. You say that Yasser Araft is a former terrorist. Why yes, so he is.
I sincerely hope that you realise…wait for it, you might be shocked, my learned friend…
SO WAS ARIEL SHARON
SO WAS ITZHAK SHAMIR
SO WAS ITZHAK RABIN
SO WAS NEARLY EVERY ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, CABINET MEMBER AND POLITICIAN SINCE THE YEAR DOT.
Your point seems to be that these people can be excused because they won. Because they have US backing, they were never terrorists, but they were freedom fighters. Please excuse the sarcasm! The same point applies to the ANC and Nelson Mandela, by the way.
I am happy to debate this particular point further if you wish.
monguRE: Weird development of this thread…
Phantom II,
If we are going to get into the nitty gritty, I may as well make a few points:
I did not say that 11/9 happened because the US was not diplomatic to terrorists. What I said was that one of the first respones should be to look inwards and ask “why?”. Unless you know why a particular event happened, how can you hope to prevent a recurrence? Foreign policy and diplomacy is one major area to look at.
The people who committed this act were monsters. They did it because they hated the US and you probably would not profit by going any deeper than that. But, millions of people in the Arab world cheered. What you have to analyse is the reasons why so many people celebrated. It’s not because they are evil.
You inadvertantly proved my next point as well. You say that Yasser Araft is a former terrorist. Why yes, so he is.
I sincerely hope that you realise…wait for it, you might be shocked, my learned friend…
SO WAS ARIEL SHARON
SO WAS ITZHAK SHAMIR
SO WAS ITZHAK RABIN
SO WAS NEARLY EVERY ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER, CABINET MEMBER AND POLITICIAN SINCE THE YEAR DOT.
Your point seems to be that these people can be excused because they won. Because they have US backing, they were never terrorists, but they were freedom fighters. Please excuse the sarcasm! The same point applies to the ANC and Nelson Mandela, by the way.
I am happy to debate this particular point further if you wish.
monguRE: Help on Virgin fleet
I think that a few of the 747-200s were sold to Kabo Air of Nigeria.
As for the TF-ATW 747-200 which was sold to Air Atlanta:
I might just add an accountant’s perspective here:
Assets which are sold and leased back are always retained on the Balance Sheet, as if no transaction took place. This is because of the “substance over form” concept. Techinally, this aircraft is still an asset of Virgin, irrespective of precise legal title. This is because it is seen as a loan from Atlanta, which just happens to have been secured on a 747. If the situation remains the same at Virgin’s year end, this aircraft will be included in their accounts.
monguRE: BA’s Preffered Merger Partner-Iberia
BA already have 9.9% of Iberia, so they must be pretty sure about this.
The combination of BA’s strong North American network and Iberia’s South American network might just work.
As the article said, I would expect further acquisitions or mergers once bilateral negotiations cease.
I am wary of the term “merger” though. Under financial reporting standards, it would be an acquisition if either company transferred economic benefit to the shareholders of the other company.
In other words, unless it is exactly 50/50, then it will be one company acquiring the other.
I suspect “merger” sounds friendlier than “takeover” even though it would probably be technically incorrect.
monguRE: Same old anti – US Crap
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-06-02 AT 09:44 PM (GMT)]How can you possibly think the US is acting to protect democracy and freedom by going after Saddam?
Gefore hit the nail on the head when he intoned that the no-fly zone etc.. was motivated primarily by oil.
I’m a Brit, and I’m not particularly fond of the institutions of Europe. Until a few years ago, I was enthusiastic about the US – I even applied for some jobs there after I graduated from University.
But the reaction to 11/9 has really turned me 180 degrees. I cannot credit myself with being so naive as to actually admire the US. Rather than asking why people could hate their country so much, they instinctively decide that the solution is to dislike everything which isn’t American.
GWB does not even have the effectiveness to make any meaningful actions in the wake of the terrorist attacks. Domestic airline security is still poor, Tom Ridge is a figure of fun, US sea ports still have very poor security – but on the other hand, foreign steel is tarrif bared. Effective measures, what?
Oh – I forgot to mention the Afghan war. What a pathetic #####-up. How do some of these guys become Generals? Do they fail quiz shows?
* In an attempt to win hearts and minds, they ignore the advice of the people with the best track record, the Brits. Against advice, they drop cluster bombs everywhere and lots of civilians die.
* When the SAS start tracking Bin Laden via his satellite phone transmissions, the Department of Defense announce this to the world. Shockingly, Bin Laden turns his phone off. What a cheat!
* When a CIA officer seemingly commits a war crime, GWB presents the Stars and Stripes to the widow of the “hero”.
How can our allies possibly find fault with us?!
We do so, and your reaction is to respond that we are US-bashing.
Well, like I said I was pretty much pro-US and anti-Europe quite recently. But the reaction of the US leadership has been, basically, vulgar. The arguments put forward by the Europeans contain more in the way of logic. The recent escalations in Israel are another example. US policy = back Israel all the way. Rationale = I don’t know, honestly.
But when the quaint yuropee-ans make suggestions, you tell us to shut up. Maybe terrorism does not affect us. Perhaps US-funded groups like the IRA are not terrorists. Perhaps they are freedom fighters.
The central thrust of the argument which Phantom and basically all the pro-US rabble have used is weak. They struggle to cover over the fact that the Americans want one law to apply to them, and another law to apply to the rest of the world. Their only argument is that they will not tolerate their great freedoms and democracy to be eroded by an international court which is not directly accountable to the American electorate.
I am faintly apologetic for babbling on so much, but I find my entire belief system eroding because of the US reaction to 11/9.
monguRE: Same old anti – US Crap
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 15-06-02 AT 09:44 PM (GMT)]How can you possibly think the US is acting to protect democracy and freedom by going after Saddam?
Gefore hit the nail on the head when he intoned that the no-fly zone etc.. was motivated primarily by oil.
I’m a Brit, and I’m not particularly fond of the institutions of Europe. Until a few years ago, I was enthusiastic about the US – I even applied for some jobs there after I graduated from University.
But the reaction to 11/9 has really turned me 180 degrees. I cannot credit myself with being so naive as to actually admire the US. Rather than asking why people could hate their country so much, they instinctively decide that the solution is to dislike everything which isn’t American.
GWB does not even have the effectiveness to make any meaningful actions in the wake of the terrorist attacks. Domestic airline security is still poor, Tom Ridge is a figure of fun, US sea ports still have very poor security – but on the other hand, foreign steel is tarrif bared. Effective measures, what?
Oh – I forgot to mention the Afghan war. What a pathetic #####-up. How do some of these guys become Generals? Do they fail quiz shows?
* In an attempt to win hearts and minds, they ignore the advice of the people with the best track record, the Brits. Against advice, they drop cluster bombs everywhere and lots of civilians die.
* When the SAS start tracking Bin Laden via his satellite phone transmissions, the Department of Defense announce this to the world. Shockingly, Bin Laden turns his phone off. What a cheat!
* When a CIA officer seemingly commits a war crime, GWB presents the Stars and Stripes to the widow of the “hero”.
How can our allies possibly find fault with us?!
We do so, and your reaction is to respond that we are US-bashing.
Well, like I said I was pretty much pro-US and anti-Europe quite recently. But the reaction of the US leadership has been, basically, vulgar. The arguments put forward by the Europeans contain more in the way of logic. The recent escalations in Israel are another example. US policy = back Israel all the way. Rationale = I don’t know, honestly.
But when the quaint yuropee-ans make suggestions, you tell us to shut up. Maybe terrorism does not affect us. Perhaps US-funded groups like the IRA are not terrorists. Perhaps they are freedom fighters.
The central thrust of the argument which Phantom and basically all the pro-US rabble have used is weak. They struggle to cover over the fact that the Americans want one law to apply to them, and another law to apply to the rest of the world. Their only argument is that they will not tolerate their great freedoms and democracy to be eroded by an international court which is not directly accountable to the American electorate.
I am faintly apologetic for babbling on so much, but I find my entire belief system eroding because of the US reaction to 11/9.
monguRE: EU-immigration policy
As a cynical Brit (Europe is out to get us), I have no problem in beleiving that the ultimate aim of the EU is a federal super-state. Various EU leaders admit this from time to time.
If this is going to happen, then it will presumably be on a multi-tiered basis; what former UK Prime Minister, John Major, descirbed as “variable geometry Europe”.
The clear implication is that there must be border controls between the inner core of Europe and the rest.
If there are going to be internal borders between the inner EU and the outer EU, then there is no conflict with having a third “outer” border between the EU and non-EU countries.
A common EU immigration policy is designed partly to set the scene for the above scenario.
monguRE: EU-immigration policy
As a cynical Brit (Europe is out to get us), I have no problem in beleiving that the ultimate aim of the EU is a federal super-state. Various EU leaders admit this from time to time.
If this is going to happen, then it will presumably be on a multi-tiered basis; what former UK Prime Minister, John Major, descirbed as “variable geometry Europe”.
The clear implication is that there must be border controls between the inner core of Europe and the rest.
If there are going to be internal borders between the inner EU and the outer EU, then there is no conflict with having a third “outer” border between the EU and non-EU countries.
A common EU immigration policy is designed partly to set the scene for the above scenario.
monguRE: Music/Musician That You Can’t Stand?!?!
In no particular order, apart from the speed with which they came to mind:
1. N-sync
2. Westlife
3. Atomic Kitten
4. Any generic boy band or girl band
5. Jazz
6. Manufactured music
7. Folk music
8. Country & Western
Sign In
