You misunderstood, I wasn’t calling the protests silly, just your anology.
Is the MOD as bad as the Chinese?
How many people were killed in the UK protest?
Was it covered by the state media (BBC)?
Are there opposition members in the House of Commons and Lords?

You see, no comparison.

Your point seems to be that no place is perfect…so the UK, EU, US, UN, and anyone else has no right to condem the Chinese.
But the limitations placed on people in the UK, to cite your examples…like tresspassing on an airport or breaking into an MOD base are trivial compared to what’s going on in China.

You and I, and the UN and the UK and anyone else can condemn any human right abuses anywhere as im sure the same way China will condemn us for interfering in their internal affairs. Im not trying to compare the UK government to the chinese, but the culture here in the UK with respect to HR is totally different in comparison to China. The people in China see it as part of the norm, we dont over in the west. Capital punishment and things like beheading is seen as an extreme here where as in Saudi arabia for example its the norm.

What im trying to get at it, the west nor anyone else for that matter cant impose their view of HR on China or any other country. If change is to happen its to happen from within. While any abuses should be fully condemned (and I do condemn them im not condoning in any way) the best we can do is voice our concerns and try and make those old boys see from our views. What else can we do?

A rather silly anology.

MOD & USAF policy (remember, the MOD sets the rules for USAF bases in the UK) is to allow protestors provided they don’t break any laws…block traffic etc. It is not illegal to protest.

If they do any of the above, they are libel to arrest by civil authorities.
The same rules are probaly in effect at all MOD bases, nuclear power stations, Buckingham Palace, the Houses of Parliment, major factories, TESCO,….

If they unlawfully enter the base, they are arrested by by the MOD for trespassing. Seems pretty clear.

The use of deadly force is authorized…but it has never been used in the US or UK…or anyplace else. Some silly rules about protecting weapons (bombs and such), people, and aircraft from terrorists, spies, and the like.
Similar rules were in effect in the war…you know where the good guys beat the fascists. It was in all the papers.
Perhaps you’ve seen a film about it?

The MOD and USAF put up the “Greenham Common” protestors for years and and no was was ever arrested for simply being there…I’m pretty sure no one was shot.

I dont see whats silly about protesting outside a military base, the protests were not aloud to be carried out that was going against the freedom of those people, and the house of lords agreed to that. Those people didnt threaten to enter the base, no law was broken on their part.

Franky, I’m surprised at the level of defense the Chinese receive here…after all, the nations in the EU seem to be urging the PRC use restraint if not outright supporting Tibet. Public opinion is not on the side of the totalitarian regime.

Nobody is defending the chinese, I certainly am not defending anyone. Im pointing out that nobody/country is perfect. While the talk has veered off slightly going on about freedom of expression (my fault here), the conclusion I ask you all is, what would you have done that will change anything in tibet or anywhere else?

So despite the apparent loss of your freedoms you can not:

-Yell “fire” in a crouded cinema.
-Drive your auto at 130 MPH on the high street.
-Marry your sister.

I find those examples rather weak, firstly its against the law to drive at 130MPH, so anybody doing that is likly to get prosecuted, as for marrying ones sister I dont know if there is a law probably is in the UK. Finally yelling in a cinema….well that is not a public place so to speak a cinema is part of a private enterprise who have a set of rules, you pay them and they give you a service but you have to adhere to their rules, abit like taking out a telephone contract you have to adhere to the rules. And freedoms do have a limit usually in the form of “the law of the land”.

Personally I think you raise a lot of valid issues, but not necessarily this one. Often times these protesters will actually illegally enter secure areas of the base (on one occasion they actually cut a hole through the fenceline at Lakenheath). That type of action simply cannot be tolerated by a law-abiding society. If this was the same organization, then I say the police may have been right to stop them before they did something really stupid or dangerous. And yes, breaching a military facility is most definitely grounds to get yourself shot at.

These group of protesters made up mostly of women, and we cant stop them from protesting assuming they will break the law by breaking into the base, they have to do that to be arrested and stopped. Protesting outside the base should be fine. Another example comes to mind how two old ladies were approached by policemen, because where they were standing was overlooking a military base. The policeman was asking them for identification under the new terror laws….i mean come on two old women standing in a field talking…and its over looking a military base so they are questioned. Coming back to these protesters after 4 yrs they won their case in the house of lords, it was ruled they shouldnt have been stoped and that was unlawful.

Also, the genius protesters at the East Midlands airport were also guilty of illegally entering the airport by cutting through the fence. In the current environment, searching their homes is a valid security procedure I’d think. Dunno if you can actually legally prevent them from meeting together, but the search was warranted. Some morons at Heathrow did the same thing, actually climbing on top of an airliner to unveil a banner.

The protestors in the east midlands airport case occupied an unused runway, they wasnt causing any disturbance to anybody and it was a peaceful protest. Entering of the area may have been hazadous for them (even if it is unused), but the ordeal they went through after, being detained more than a day and being told not to meet up again….where is the freedom in that?.

Now coming to your final point about police trying to help make sure a riot scene isnt made by rival protesters that is fine, but what if there is no rival protesters as in this case there wasnt any. Also a guy called Brian haw has protested on hes lonesome many times, and has been in some cases laid into by more than 10 policemen, what is that all about?. It is these people who bring light to the measures that are being taken against us in the shadows in all these legislations and laws.

Shouldn’t you have been caged by now by the oppressive and brutal Uk goverment?

Um lets have a think here…im sure MI5 hasnt quite clocked on yet, but seriously is this how you side step everything I have written. Im amused with people such as yourself who hold onto straws and even they slip out your hands. Where is your proposal now to solve HR abuses in tibet?

instead of going through your post point by point i shall just laugh at how you compare those minor infringements of rights to what goes on in China,

Listen to yourself will you, calling fellow citizens “protesting idiots”, im sure repressive regimes say the same thing. Why dont you read what I have written and actually learn a thing or two. So you find people being arrested and detained with no reason minor?, you find turning a blind eye to rendition flights resulting in some cases to torture as minor?, you find it ok for foreign governments to take away our citizens with no reason as minor?. What kind of citizen are you.

and you get to sit there slagging off your goverment again without any reprucussion from our evil goverment, suprise suprise.your distorting of the Police and how they go abou there buisness is quite a feat to

Any repercussion…please do read liek I said its obvious you know very little.

you do realise how pathetic it looks trying to compare what they do when arresting protesting idiots to what the Chinese do to there people, you sir have scored a mighty fail but keep on whining how we in the UK are brutally oppressed wont you, its comedy gold.

No where have I compared chinas HR record against the UK’s, I have highlighted we are far from perfect here and violations are being carried out in this country in some cases wrecking lives. If your blinded and cant see that fact then its ashame that someone who is trying to champion rights for tibetans cant even champion hes own citizens rights. And for your reference I wrote about the above freedoms being curtailed to highlight the fantasy many people in britain live in thinking how free and wonderful everything is.

Oh and you never did answer your solution to the socalled “tibetan HR issues”, what is your solution lets hear that too.

What are you talking about? you do realise your sat here spouting free speech right now – freedom of expression duh – yeah you ripped apart a pipe dream that your living in! You sit here in the west slagging off and running down everyone whilst living in freedom, theres no guys gonna be knocking on your door in 10 minuites because you slagged off your goverment is there? Its not the west full of hypocrasy sir but yourself!

With the kind of anti terror laws in place I wouldnt be suprised if some agency did turn up at anyones door for spouting hate against the UK government. Let me wake you up to the reality as you need a dose of it.

1) The government stopped anti war protestors who were legally trying to carry out a protests at a US base in fairford gloucestershire back in 2003 what happened to freedom to express there and to the civil liberties. Who was on board- old men and women and defenseless people who posed no threat at all. The US military had said they would fire on any protestors that breached the base….these are british citizens by the way.

2) Did you know you can be fined for disagreeing with the government anywhere in the UK, so much for your spouting hate against the government theory. Wear a “brown is a ( what ever vile word you like) ” t-shirt outside parliament lets see how long it takes for you to get fined.

3)It is illegal to demonstrate infront of parliament (infact within 1 km around the area) without getting police permission first. The home secretary has got the power to make anywhere in the UK a protest free zone.

4) Arresting of climate change protestors at east midlands airport, by an armed unit by the way, who then told the protestors on release if they met one another they will be rearrested. These protestors had their houses ransacked, families scared by the police by the way. Sounds like something robert mugabe would have done.

5) In brighton the arresting, dragging of an 80 year old man by about 5 police officers who was peacefully demonstrating against an american weapons factory, what did the old man do? hold up sketches against the factory. The old man by the way was ex RAF who served in the world war.

6) oh what about these terror laws that detain without trial or evidence, churchil was the one who suspended habeus corpus during the second world war but quickly after reintroduced it. And now we have a pathetic labour government who has again suspended it…after more than a thousand years of having it in full force. Many innocent people have been arrested- the recin plot back in 2002 comes to mind. All made up and proved to be nothing. Civil liberties….what are those?

7) Natwest 3 ring a bell?, all extradiated to the US with no evidence or details of their case provided by the US for anything, only the fact blunket signed our rights away to the americans. Freedoms did I hear?

8)Guntanomo bay and torture that is carried out there, im sure i dont need to get into that and rendition flights to and from hidden prisons around the world used by the americans to carry out torture in countries which allow it.

if you want more dose of reality please just say il help in kind.

Go learn about Chinas abuses of human rights too before you try claiming China dosn’t keep its population oppressed. i look forward to your reply which i predict will apolagise for China, say the human rights allagations are all made up and that you live in a society with no freedom of expression whilst probably slandering your own goverment which will happily let you spew your opinion of the ‘myth of freedom expression in the west’ that you ripped apart as a pipe dream

Im not appologising for anybody, im trying to make you see sense. In reality like i posted a few posts above what would you propose we all do?, theres very little we all can do. Lets hear your solution to this “Chinas abuse of HR”, what do you propose. If you cant propose jack so to speak and cant do anything yourself, then why are you ranting on?.

By their actions…no democracy and state controlled media, the Chinese government seems to be indicating that it really doesn’t care about what its people want.

Most people just want to live their lives…they get violent only when they think there is no other option….i.e. when the government is hopelessly against them and not listening.

As you point out, China is not the same place as it was in the 19530-60s….when will the old men realize that?

How many people must be crushed by tanks before the government gets the idea the people want some changes?

The problem is we have no idea what the chinese people want as there has never been a poll carried out, we dont really know how much the current government is loved or not. The next generation will change China but china will not become like the west. It is different culturally and that does not change over night.

Now most people are concerned about human right abuses ect, you have to ask your self what can the world really do apart from what its doing now, foreign leaders are voicing their concerns but apart from that what else do you think will happen?. Thats why I said what I did, what SOC wrote was correct. It may just take time and many lives to make a change or it might not. We just have to wait and see. Do you really think after the soviet union collapsed and russia adopted democrasy the old set up no longer exists? ofcourse it still does, those old boys are still there, institutions have changed names but not gone away.

Yes easy for me to sit in the conform and safty of my house while Tibetans or other people could be oppressed as we speak but in realitic terms what am i to do?, will boycotting the olympics make China say “tibet is no longer part of China” or will any other measures do that?. The chinese allready say they have given tibetans autonomy and rights, some chinese see the minorities having more protection and rights than them, what are we to do sitting and judging from a distant. Only the people where they are can make the difference, the only real thing we can do is voice our concerns to make sure people are not killed unjustly like what happened at Tiananmen Square. China worries about its international image so maybe voicing concerns can influence them. But im afraid thats all we can do.

I think they tried that in Tiananmen Square in 1989.
How can they influence their government when it’s not a democracy and the media is state controlled?

There is a large growing middle class in China which will have a huge economic clout against the government, the government will listen and signs are showing it is listening already. China may be a communist country but its opening up to western ideas they have adopted a capitalist approach with their business and industries, although still state controlled for the most part. You cant expect change over night but even the most brutal and repressive regimes in history have been toppled by their own people. The Chinese people may not topple their government but the next and coming generations will influence and change it.

Like I said only the chinese and tibetan people can resolve the matters and it is their internal affairs, if you have a better idea please do share it.